It's where I work and am required to live in state. Retirement in 2-1/2 years though and then maybe on to a more gun friendly state. BTW, I used to live in Birmingham when my father worked for GM and my sister lives in Grosse Point.
Forget the 5 shot self defense!
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armoredman
Member
Amen. However, we do have to be aware of what venues we do go to, distractions and options. I do know a retired police officer, (with far more eeperience in stressful situations than 95% of interweb commandos, including me), who carries an AK in his vehicle...with an American flag "doo-rag" tied to the bayonet lug to "assist with identification in stressful situations. I'd love to just carry my Dept issued hat in my back pocket to slap on my head, but my pockets aren't that big - perhaps a bandanna with patch sewn on might help, or provide an aiming point.
Weigh options, scenarios, and the what your main goal as a CCW carrier actually is - nobody is Chuck Norris, not even him.
Vern Humphrey
Member
The question was asked, and we have done our best to answer it.
And as for us being too old -- would you hire a 6-year-old to teach First Grade? Of course not!
When you want answers to problems, look to the old grey-beards.
And as for us being too old -- would you hire a 6-year-old to teach First Grade? Of course not!
When you want answers to problems, look to the old grey-beards.
JTHunter
Member
Vern - maybe we should do like they did in the movie "Logan's Run" and just off everybody when they reach 30. How's that sound?
You never responded to my comment.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Once you reach that age, you go into a government booth, there's a flash of light, and they sweep the ashes out. Solves the Social Security problem, anyway.
Okay?
Comments don't always get responses. I don't respond to every comment anybody makes just-because. Is there a question you wanted me to answer or something?
RCArms.com
Member
That is exactly the scenario that existed in the PULSE. 300+ unarmed people cowering and hoping not to be a victim. What is not known is that if ANYONE of the 300+ occupants offered any kind of resistance. What is not know is how effective the shooter could have been when 30 to 50 drink glasses, chairs, bar stools, ice cubes, ash trays, shoes (yes shoes..300+ people = 600+ projectile weapons) flying through the air at him. How quick could his reload drill have been with any bit of resistance. Even if unarmed, you can choose not to be a victim that goes out without a fight.
Also unknown at this time is is if any of the casualties were caused by Police return fire that penetrated the walls and breached opening.
Lots of unanswered questions for sure.
Actually, this is the reason you want to carry more than 5 shots:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=810772
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=810772
george burns
Member
Cover and concealment, are the key in this situation. He isn't going to know where the shot came from with all the noise, music and echo from his weapon. You wait until you have a clean shot, and take it. If you miss, which you shouldn't at that range, you should have dissapeared after a double tap. and take another shot from a new position. Look if you're going to die anyway, you may as well use tactics that hve been used sucessfully before, shoot and move, if you sit there and keep firing and don't hit anything, you probablly should not have brought a gun with you to start with. as he's going to kill you.
Also if you can get on the ground, shoot his feet, that way he can't see you and by the time he figures out what is going on, you should have hit him and he should be overwhelmed at that point. If you can't stand it will take the fight out of you.
You are going to die anyway if you do nothing, and running just makes you an easier target like a funnell.
I carried a gun for 25 years in NYC, and was in clubs all the time, no one ever knew I had a pistol in my boot, but I could get it out in a second if needed.
Actually I was frisked once in front of an after hours club, "I had a "carry" license on me", but it happened so fast that I never got a chance to say anything before this cop started frisking me, told me to shut up, and I would be arrested if I didn't, just for standing there. He missed the gun completely. I then told him I had a license and he missed the pistol on my ankle. And I was with 2 other off duty detectives, from the 75. He was not happy.
I asked him why he frisked me and he had no answer, except move along now.
Also if you can get on the ground, shoot his feet, that way he can't see you and by the time he figures out what is going on, you should have hit him and he should be overwhelmed at that point. If you can't stand it will take the fight out of you.
You are going to die anyway if you do nothing, and running just makes you an easier target like a funnell.
I carried a gun for 25 years in NYC, and was in clubs all the time, no one ever knew I had a pistol in my boot, but I could get it out in a second if needed.
Actually I was frisked once in front of an after hours club, "I had a "carry" license on me", but it happened so fast that I never got a chance to say anything before this cop started frisking me, told me to shut up, and I would be arrested if I didn't, just for standing there. He missed the gun completely. I then told him I had a license and he missed the pistol on my ankle. And I was with 2 other off duty detectives, from the 75. He was not happy.
I asked him why he frisked me and he had no answer, except move along now.
GBExpat
Member
That is not an example of the subject of this Thread since that was not a "carry" encounter but, rather, a "home defense" encounter.
lysanderxiii
Member
In the book it was 21.Vern - maybe we should do like they did in the movie "Logan's Run" and just off everybody when they reach 30. How's that sound?
They changed it for the movies because neither Michael York nor Richard Jordan could be passed off as 18 or 19 years old.
I get the point of the thread, to encourage carrying more than a snub, which also includes pocket 380's IMO.
OP: What I've learned from threads like this is it is pretty much a waste of time to try and encourage people to carry more than a snub / pocket 380 especially if they rationalize the choice based on ....
-Location: they live / work in "good" areas, they do not think they will actually use the gun, it is carried just in case a lone undetermined individual happens to attack or threaten them with lethal force. If they plan to go to an area deemed "bad" they will likely carry something with greater capacity; the criminals, psychos, ect... that live in the "bad" areas are conveniently immobile. Most popular rationalization I see.
-Lethality: a 38 / 380 will kill you, wouldn't want to get shot with it ect... the missing factor in this rationalization is speed of incapacitation, lethal doesn't always mean quickly effective. A person has up to 10 seconds of voluntary activity even with a lethal hit, both lungs. Hit in just one lung, or less they are going to be able to continue aggressive action for much longer. This rationalization ignores human ability.
-Determination of attacker: the expectation that if an attacker (singular of course) shows up they won't be determined, psychotic, drugged. The attacker will likely run away at the presentation of a pocket pistol, actually having to shoot them isn't likely and if shooting is necessary they will quickly stop after being shot once or twice. Rationalization intertwined with "good" location, determined people ain't gonna be there.
-Lone assailants and accuracy: two or more attackers is very unlikely and both of them being determined or drugged is totally improbable. The rationalization of if I can't get it done in 5 shots I'm done... expectation is well placed shots, no misses, no bad shot placement, no multiple attackers requiring multiple shots. This rationalization also typically intertwined with "good" location.
Those rationalizations will trump (in their mind) any examples to the contrary that may be presented.
I'm with you OP, my minimum primary carry of choice is a Glock 30SF or 19.
I also have a LCP 380 or Glock 43 in my pocket as an alternative.
I prefer to carry something "decent" even though I live, work and vacation in "good" places.
OP: What I've learned from threads like this is it is pretty much a waste of time to try and encourage people to carry more than a snub / pocket 380 especially if they rationalize the choice based on ....
-Location: they live / work in "good" areas, they do not think they will actually use the gun, it is carried just in case a lone undetermined individual happens to attack or threaten them with lethal force. If they plan to go to an area deemed "bad" they will likely carry something with greater capacity; the criminals, psychos, ect... that live in the "bad" areas are conveniently immobile. Most popular rationalization I see.
-Lethality: a 38 / 380 will kill you, wouldn't want to get shot with it ect... the missing factor in this rationalization is speed of incapacitation, lethal doesn't always mean quickly effective. A person has up to 10 seconds of voluntary activity even with a lethal hit, both lungs. Hit in just one lung, or less they are going to be able to continue aggressive action for much longer. This rationalization ignores human ability.
-Determination of attacker: the expectation that if an attacker (singular of course) shows up they won't be determined, psychotic, drugged. The attacker will likely run away at the presentation of a pocket pistol, actually having to shoot them isn't likely and if shooting is necessary they will quickly stop after being shot once or twice. Rationalization intertwined with "good" location, determined people ain't gonna be there.
-Lone assailants and accuracy: two or more attackers is very unlikely and both of them being determined or drugged is totally improbable. The rationalization of if I can't get it done in 5 shots I'm done... expectation is well placed shots, no misses, no bad shot placement, no multiple attackers requiring multiple shots. This rationalization also typically intertwined with "good" location.
Those rationalizations will trump (in their mind) any examples to the contrary that may be presented.
I'm with you OP, my minimum primary carry of choice is a Glock 30SF or 19.
I also have a LCP 380 or Glock 43 in my pocket as an alternative.
I prefer to carry something "decent"
even though I live, work and vacation in "good" places.I found a truth, whilst working as a Bouncer, in the Clubs In Liverpool UK.
Strike first, hard, and often.
My thought in a gun fight, the same! Hence my thoughts on capacity, based on what can be carried, with a fair amount of weight.
My idea, is a burst of rounds. A bunch of rounds.
Same mentality, punch/punch/punch/punch. The first punch to the nose, stuns, blood runs, the head is were the brain lives. Each hit scrambles the idea box more!
Move that to 147g Ranger T hollow points. Man with a knife, hi on meth!
Five yards away. You see him starting to crouch body weight swings to the balls of the feet. Waiting is over, from punching, to shooting.
Pistol locked up, vision behind the sights. Press/press/press/press! Hits into the upper chest.
Those 147g bullets, plow into organs. And because you started with 16 you have 12 left! Now that is why you carry 16 rounds! Because you never know!
Strike first, hard, and often.
My thought in a gun fight, the same! Hence my thoughts on capacity, based on what can be carried, with a fair amount of weight.
My idea, is a burst of rounds. A bunch of rounds.
Same mentality, punch/punch/punch/punch. The first punch to the nose, stuns, blood runs, the head is were the brain lives. Each hit scrambles the idea box more!
Move that to 147g Ranger T hollow points. Man with a knife, hi on meth!
Five yards away. You see him starting to crouch body weight swings to the balls of the feet. Waiting is over, from punching, to shooting.
Pistol locked up, vision behind the sights. Press/press/press/press! Hits into the upper chest.
Those 147g bullets, plow into organs. And because you started with 16 you have 12 left! Now that is why you carry 16 rounds! Because you never know!
JTHunter
Member
Vern Humphrey said:
That sounds like that episode of the original Star Trek called "A Taste of Armageddon" with the computer simulated war. The "victims" walked into disintegration chambers and there wasn't even dust left.
lysanderxiii - Correct! I still have the paperback somewhere.
That sounds like that episode of the original Star Trek called "A Taste of Armageddon" with the computer simulated war. The "victims" walked into disintegration chambers and there wasn't even dust left.
lysanderxiii - Correct! I still have the paperback somewhere.
45_auto
Member
I never realized it was so simple. After reading your post, I can't understand why there are any mass shootings at all, or why the cops and military have so many problems getting hits when people are shooting at them.
old guy said:
It's like deja vous, all over again, so why am I bumping it?
After all, everybody (who is anybody) knows that unless you're packin' double stack plastic, you might as well be carrying a flintlock in Condition 3.
Redlg155
Member
Say what you will, but my primary focus is to get my family and myself out of harms way and only engaging the threat if it blocks my Avenue of retreat. That being said, I'm ok with my G43 and an extra mag. My home is a different matter, not many want to pay the price to cross the moat uninvited!
I would think differently if I had a legal obligation to stop the threat, but I don't.
I would think differently if I had a legal obligation to stop the threat, but I don't.
justice06rr
Member
The problem is that you will not be standing still in a place like that when a shooting starts, and with most normal shooters with average (or less) shooting skill, mag capacity IS a big deal. Any movement during shooting will throw off your aim, and there are way too many people in there to get a steady clear shot to begin with. There's a high chance that you will miss your target multiple times.
Add panic to the situation, and its a bad place to be in altogether. Its not like a CCW'er is James bond...
Reference things you have actually done, been involved in. As in a fight, as an adult.
Different parts of the World, different areas of a City, for instance.
A neat little cut from a Blue Bloods episode. A press conference, a Reporter was criticizing Danny for him being to quick to use his gun.
Frank asked him to imagine he had come across a man with a gun, described the scene kind of well. So he picked on the reporter to imagine this scenario. Then he said "Ok what would you do" The Reporter said "Ah" Frank said Bang! Too late! You are dead, the Reporter was dumbfounded!
Different parts of the World, different areas of a City, for instance.
A neat little cut from a Blue Bloods episode. A press conference, a Reporter was criticizing Danny for him being to quick to use his gun.
Frank asked him to imagine he had come across a man with a gun, described the scene kind of well. So he picked on the reporter to imagine this scenario. Then he said "Ok what would you do" The Reporter said "Ah" Frank said Bang! Too late! You are dead, the Reporter was dumbfounded!
Now that's funny right there....Reference things you have actually done followed by a description of a fictional TV cop show episode. PRICELESS.
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