Cross dominance and both eyes open

I think that, like most things, it depends. In this case it depends on the type of gun and the degree of dominance. Until about a year and cataract and other corrective eye surgery, my right eye was extremely dominant and determined that I shoot right handed. It still is to some extent (right is 20/15, left is 20/25). Shooting a handgun with irons and both eyes open now, I find that I can do just about as well left handed as right handed (I'm ambidextrous)--the primary factor being trigger control. I need to practice more with my left to build the muscle memory.

With a rifle, however, eye dominance is key for both irons an telescopic sights.

I have a very difficult time shooting both eyes open being righthanded and left eye dominant, most of my shooting is with iron sights, and with both eyes open, my right eye keeps going out of focus leaving me sightless(meaning rifle sights, not blindness...). I have a feeling with enough training its something I might be able to overcome, but I don't know that it would be worth the time and effort. YMMV as they say.

I spent time with a neurologist on this topic several years ago - eye dominance is hard wired into our brain, whereas manual dexterity is a learned attribute. In other words, you LEARN to be right or left handed for a given task, but you cannot change your eye dominance. You can change your focus by squinting or blinking one eye, but the dominant eye will always be the dominant image to start, so the shooter trying to use their non-dominant eye will always have to consciously switch.

The NRA has finally came around to having us teach shooters to hold firearms according to their dominant eye, with concessions to stubborn folks who want to be "cross dominant." Anyone can learn to shoot with their off hand (developed dexterity), but it really is a challenge to go against your brain's wiring to shoot with your off eye.

I'm a "non-dominant person," whichever side I might slightly be looking is the side which takes over. Not great for rifles, since cheek weld inevitably tilts the head to put my off eye in control. While it doesn't work well for hunting, I can "disable" my off eye with tape on my shooting glasses while target shooting.

As a guy who has been stuck swapping one way or the other, it's a challenge to shoot non-dominant eye, BUT, it's not that bad.

But a shooter is much better served to learn to shoot same side as their dominant eye, target acquisition will come much more naturally and quickly.

Im cross eyed dominant and it does make a difference under certain circumstances.

A few years ago I went to my quarterly rifle qual at work and was out of contacts. I shot both eyes open and I had a great shot group for the qual, but it was about 12 inches to the left. This was while using an Aimpoint. When I have my contacts in or wearing prescription glasses I don't have this shift of point of impact. I obviously failed the qual and when I shot it again immediately afterwards I closed my non shooting dominant eye and shot a perfect score.

The best reason I could come up with is that my left dominant eye really isnt very bad. It's around 20/25 to 20/30 vision. However my right eye has an astigmatism and is more like 20/50 to 20/60. When its corrected the dominance doesnt seem to matter much. But when its not corrected the dominant eye definitely takes over.

I shoot pistol right handed as well but I just turn my head slightly to align the sights with my left eye.

I shoot pistol right handed as well but I just turn my head slightly to align the sights with my left eye.

Click to expand...

My wife does this also, and it works for her.

Your friend is right. With both eyes open you have to shoot from the dominate side. Closing one eye is the only way to make it work if shooting from the wrong side.

I strongly recommend that shooters learn how to shoot rifles and shotguns from the side of the dominate eye. It is much easier to retrain muscles than the brain.

And the military has taught a lot of stuff wrong. It depends on the individual instructor

I have an unusual condition in that neither eye is dominant. It is impossible for me to shoot with both eyes open unless I do the glasses with tape over one pupil trick.

daniel craig said:

Today at work a coworker and I got into a discussion about cross dominance because he is right handed but left eye dominant.

I grew up learning (and had it reinforced in the military- that doesn't necessarily mean much) that eye dominance doesn't mean jack if learn to shoot with both eyes open. My coworker on the other hand disagrees, saying that even with both eyes open eye dominance is still a limiting factor. His logic made enough sense at the time that I might be persuaded. I figured I'd get y'alls thoughts first though.

Does eye dominance still matter if you shoot with both eyes open or can using both eyes help mitigate cross dominance issues?

Click to expand...

You've got things completely backwards.

Eye dominance doesn't mean jack if you shoot with one eye closed. Doesn't matter which one is dominant... if you only have one eye open, that's the 'dominant' one.

The only time eye dominance comes into play is when you shoot with both eyes open. Then your dominant eye takes over when focusing, which can cause problems if that eye isn't the one aligned with your sights.

Anyone can change which eye is "leading" by squinting or blinking, etc, but you can't change which eye is "dominant," meaning which one is naturally leading. So if you're looking face forward at a deer down range, raise your rifle to intercept your right eye and the deer, but you're left eye dominant, your sight won't appear aligned to the target deer, as your left eye will still be leading. A quick blink, or squint of your left eye will shift gears to let your non-dominant, right eye "lead"

It kinda works like this: if you take two pictures of the same room from ALMOST the same position, you can cut one of them apart and tape it to the other picture to make the overall composite picture larger. Your brain decides which picture, the right or the left, it cuts apart and which one acts as the primary most of the time. The picture you cut apart is your non-dominant eye.

There's no way - outside of eye injury and a LONG TIME or brain injury - to change which eye your brain considers to be the primary.

But all in all, it's not difficult to:

1) Best option: Learn to shoot with your non handwriting hand (you learned to type with both hands at the same speed afterall)
2) Serviceable option: Learn to blink/squint as you raise your rifle to change your eye dominance.

You don't have to close one eye. Just squint. Like anything to do with precision shooting, it takes practice.

Varminterror said:

Anyone can change which eye is "leading" by squinting or blinking, etc, but you can't change which eye is "dominant," meaning which one is naturally leading. So if you're looking face forward at a deer down range, raise your rifle to intercept your right eye and the deer, but you're left eye dominant, your sight won't appear aligned to the target deer, as your left eye will still be leading. A quick blink, or squint of your left eye will shift gears to let your non-dominant, right eye "lead"

Click to expand...

I think we're saying the same thing but getting hung up on semantics (with you using the proper terminology).

So yes, if you're standing with both eyes open and raise your rifle to your shoulder in an attempt to use your non-dominant eye, you're going to have problems. But if you raise your rifle to your shoulder with either eye closed (doesn't matter which one), unless you're extremely slow on the uptake, you're hopefully going to figure out that you need to align your head differently to aim down the sights. If every time you shot a rifle you closed your dominant eye and sighted down the non-dominant one, assuming a sight picture would be just as natural as it would if the eyes were reversed.

So again - if you only shot with one eye completely closed (which admittedly is not ideal in many cases) - eye dominance wouldn't really matter.

Agreed - but nobody should shoot with one eye closed. ;-)

Varminterror said:

Agreed - but nobody should shoot with one eye closed. ;-)

Click to expand...

Agreed

azrocks said:

You've got things completely backwards.

Eye dominance doesn't mean jack if you shoot with one eye closed. Doesn't matter which one is dominant... if you only have one eye open, that's the 'dominant' one.

The only time eye dominance comes into play is when you shoot with both eyes open. Then your dominant eye takes over when focusing, which can cause problems if that eye isn't the one aligned with your sights.

Click to expand...

This just isn't the case for most cross dominant shooters. I am right handed and left-eyed. If I close my left eye and use my right, my point of impact is off by as much as 2 feet from only 12 yards away. I still shoot tight little groups, they are just 2 feet to the right. I shoot with both eyes open all of the time. I just tuck the gun over so that the sights are centered over my left eye.

It can be extremely difficult for cross dominant shooters to learn to keep both eyes open but, with lots of practice, it is possible. I still find myself falling back into my old habits and closing my right eye. Lots of dry fire practice helps a lot with this.

daniel craig said:

I grew up learning (and had it reinforced in the military- that doesn't necessarily mean much) that eye dominance doesn't mean jack if learn to shoot with both eyes open. My coworker on the other hand disagrees, saying that even with both eyes open eye dominance is still a limiting factor. His logic made enough sense at the time that I might be persuaded.

Click to expand...

I am an NRA instructor so I can tell you that the NRA beginning classes do spend some time on this subject. For new shooters, learning about it just introduces a complex topic, but it does prevent some unnecessary frustration for first time shooters that have cross dominance and can't figure out why they can't use the sights.

Other than helping new shooters to get settled in to a practice routine, those who have had some experience don't give it another thought. There are a few ways to go on this, assuming that you are not personally afflicted by a severe hand-eye coordination condition. First, the head can move side to side to aquire a sight picture with the dominant eye. Turning the head left or right can also get you there. New shooters should actually close one eye because they have not settled on a system that works for them.

Speaking from a personal point of view, I was able to overcome cross dominance problems by practicing with both eyes open, while at first checking which sight picture my brain should select. People without this condition have already trained their brains to do all this. But it only takes a short time to "retrain" to get the brain to concentrate on the correct sight picture. It works, doesn't require drugs or alcohol or the help of a neurologist. So in short, fussing with cross dominance is, in fact, a waste of time except to get a new shooter squared away and capable of practicing.

Wireman

Schwing said:

This just isn't the case for most cross dominant shooters. I am right handed and left-eyed. If I close my left eye and use my right, my point of impact is off by as much as 2 feet from only 12 yards away. I still shoot tight little groups, they are just 2 feet to the right. I shoot with both eyes open all of the time. I just tuck the gun over so that the sights are centered over my left eye.

It can be extremely difficult for cross dominant shooters to learn to keep both eyes open but, with lots of practice, it is possible. I still find myself falling back into my old habits and closing my right eye. Lots of dry fire practice helps a lot with this.

Click to expand...

No disrespect intended, but yes... it is the case.

If you close one eye completely - doesn't matter what eye it is or what eye is dominant - and your groups go off like you say, it means one thing: You're not aligning your open eye with the rear sight, front sight, and target (assuming iron sights).

Yeah, if you close your dominant eye and leave your head and firearm in the same position as you would if it was open, of course your groups are going to move. This is obviously what is happening in your case.

This isn't to say you should fight your dominance, or shoot with one eye closed. I'm just illustrating that eye dominance is a moot point when you're discussing shooting with one eye completely shut.

Also, it's no more difficult for a cross-dominant person to learn to shoot with both eyes open than it is for anyone else. All you do is move the gun over so it's aligned with your dominant eye. Or move your head. Or both.

BTW - I'm cross-dominant as well.

[QUOTE="Agreed - but nobody should shoot with one eye closed. ;-)[/QUOTE]

Having taught myself to shoot I undoubtedly learned a lot of bad habits, but what exactly is the reasoning behind this? The concept of shooting with both eyes open was foreign to me until a few years ago.

And guess who hasn't learned how to quote since the changeover...

azrocks said:

No disrespect intended, but yes... it is the case.

If you close one eye completely - doesn't matter what eye it is or what eye is dominant - and your groups go off like you say, it means one thing: You're not aligning your open eye with the rear sight, front sight, and target (assuming iron sights).

Yeah, if you close your dominant eye and leave your head and firearm in the same position as you would if it was open, of course your groups are going to move. This is obviously what is happening in your case.

This isn't to say you should fight your dominance, or shoot with one eye closed. I'm just illustrating that eye dominance is a moot point when you're discussing shooting with one eye completely shut.

Also, it's no more difficult for a cross-dominant person to learn to shoot with both eyes open than it is for anyone else. All you do is move the gun over so it's aligned with your dominant eye. Or move your head. Or both.

BTW - I'm cross-dominant as well.

Click to expand...

I still disagree. Even using the trick to determine eye dominance proves this. If you point at an object with both eyes open and then close your non-dominant eye, it will appear as if you are no longer pointing at the object. The reverse is also true. If you close your dominant eye and point your finger at an object using ONLY your non-dominant eye, your point of aim will be off. It has nothing to do with sight alignment.

If you don't have this problem, you are very lucky. I am not saying that all cross dominant shooters experience this but most do.

Personally, I'm right eyed but can switch to left and keep both eyes open. It did take some practice shooting rifles left handed to get comfortable left eyed.

When I'm shooting with friends that are right handed but strongly right eyed I encourage them to try shooting left handed. Some are almost immediately more comfortable when they switch sides. It's like they were handicapping themselves the whole time they've been shooting and didn't realize it.

People are different and have different degrees of eye dominance and dexterity. I think people should do what works best for them, but they have to know what the alternatives are, or that there are even alternatives.

BSW

ttarp said:

[W]hat exactly is the reasoning behind [shooting both eyes open]?

Click to expand...

A few advantages to shooting with both eyes:

Your brain creates a "higher resolution composite image" of yhe two images brought in by your eyes. So your field view will be sharper in keeping both open. In closing one eye, you'll be reducing your visual acuity - basically reducing your resolution.

Closing one eye creates muscular strain in both eyes. Your closed eye will effectively dialate, triggering a sympathetic response dilation in your open eye, causing it to struggle to focus. The muscles keeping your eyes open and closed will also fatigue, since they are "programmed" to want to act sympathetically together. At best, this causes a little bit of visual acuity loss, at worst, it causes pretty nasty headaches and eye fatigue.

Closing one eye cuts your visual field by more than half. When you're focusing on your front sight, much of your FOV is occluded by the firearm, shooting both eyes open will give you a greater view of the target and field. Whether that means you are able to see your friend foolishly walking across the field of fire, or able to see a better trophy buck walk out onto the field or able to see another zombie coming in from the side to attack you, there's really no downside to having the extra peripheral view.

Of course, depth perception relies upon having both eyes open. Close one, and you're living in a 2 dimensional world. It becomes more difficult to track movements of game in depth, so you might not notice they edged 10-20yrds farther away, maybe even more between when you raised your rifle and when they finally stopped for the shot. Equally, our brain will tend to "zoom in" on far away images when we close one eye and our FOV flattens out, making far things seem closer than they are. Since that's not a real image, it kinda tricks your brain's perception of near and far field objects relative to one another.

If you try shooting a few hundred rounds of aimed fire one eyed one week, and both eyed in the next, you can usually feel for yourself the difference.

For those of you that regularly receive the catalogs from Dillon, there was an article , a really good one fairly recently on cross dominance. While some may have unique problems, the article suggested what many do, including myself. I am right handed but left eye dominant. keep both eyes open, and with the slightest of tilt use your left eye. If the target begins to double vision, partially close the left just barely. Keep the sights in focus and let the target blur. Keeping both eyes open is preferred tactically whether cross dominant or not.

Unless you are ambidextrous, shooting left handed while right handed is ridiculous. Most people who go to those lengths are trying make the target focus and let the sights blur...never a good idea. Not only does it not work for me, there is no need to. Plus, many guns are left hand prejudiced, like ARs...I don't want brass going across my line of sight, etc.

Russellc

RussellC said:

Unless you are ambidextrous, shooting left handed while right handed is ridiculous.

Click to expand...

This is not correct.

"Handedness" is a learned trait. Proof in the pudding is the fact your left hand types just as fast as your right hand and with the same accuracy, regardless of handedness.

It might feel awkward since folks are used to executing fine motor control functions with their "dominant hand," but equal dexterity can be learned with either hand.

Again, the same cannot be said about your vision - your brain favors one eye naturally. We only favor one hand because we are taught to do so when we learn different activities.

Schwing said:

If you point at an object with both eyes open and then close your non-dominant eye, it will appear as if you are no longer pointing at the object. The reverse is also true.

Click to expand...

The dominance test is not to point at a distant object - which is why you're noting a failing case for both eyes.

I had been using the diamond between the hands trick for many years, but learned a new one a few years ago which works well. Hand someone a paper towel tube and tell them to look at your right eye through the tube. Close your left eye. The eye you see through the tube is their dominant eye. The instructor in this case is the one telling them which is which, instead of the student trying to figure out on their own.

Schwing said:

I still disagree. Even using the trick to determine eye dominance proves this. If you point at an object with both eyes open and then close your non-dominant eye, it will appear as if you are no longer pointing at the object. The reverse is also true. If you close your dominant eye and point your finger at an object using ONLY your non-dominant eye, your point of aim will be off. It has nothing to do with sight alignment.

If you don't have this problem, you are very lucky. I am not saying that all cross dominant shooters experience this but most do.

Click to expand...

The lack of ability to nest quotes may be causing some difficulties for us both in following the conversation.

Let me once again state... I"m NOT saying eye dominance isn't potentially problematic when shooting with both eyes open (until you learn to get around it by moving your gun and/or head). I'm simply countering the initial inaccuracy when the OP suggested the reverse: that eye dominance was an issue with one eye closed (which it is not).

That's all I'm saying. If you close one eye (doesn't matter which one), align that eye with the rear sight notch, front sight post, and the target you want to hit, you'll hit that target (assuming the sights are zeroed for the range you're shooting at and you do your part keeping the gun steady). If you then switch the eyes that are open/closed, re-position the gun so that your open eye, rear sight notch, front sight post, and the target you want to hit are once again aligned, you'll hit your target just the same.

If you still disagree with what I've just said, you need to do a bit more thinking on the subject, because I can't think of any better way to explain it.

Varminterror said:

This is not correct.

"Handedness" is a learned trait. Proof in the pudding is the fact your left hand types just as fast as your right hand and with the same accuracy, regardless of handedness.

It might feel awkward since folks are used to executing fine motor control functions with their "dominant hand," but equal dexterity can be learned with either hand.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but this is simply not true. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handedness