Cross dominance and both eyes open

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I am only very weakly right eyed dominant. The only way I can shoot a shotgun with both eyes open is with tape obscuring the barrel on my left lens. The only way I can shoot a pistol with both eyes open is to use safety glasses that have a "cheater" right lens that focuses my right eye on the sights.
 
Wireman said:
I am an NRA instructor so I can tell you that the NRA beginning classes do spend some time on this subject. For new shooters, learning about it just introduces a complex topic, but it does prevent some unnecessary frustration for first time shooters that have cross dominance and can't figure out why they can't use the sights.

Other than helping new shooters to get settled in to a practice routine, those who have had some experience don't give it another thought. There are a few ways to go on this, assuming that you are not personally afflicted by a severe hand-eye coordination condition. First, the head can move side to side to aquire a sight picture with the dominant eye. Turning the head left or right can also get you there. New shooters should actually close one eye because they have not settled on a system that works for them.

Speaking from a personal point of view, I was able to overcome cross dominance problems by practicing with both eyes open, while at first checking which sight picture my brain should select. People without this condition have already trained their brains to do all this. But it only takes a short time to "retrain" to get the brain to concentrate on the correct sight picture. It works, doesn't require drugs or alcohol or the help of a neurologist. So in short, fussing with cross dominance is, in fact, a waste of time except to get a new shooter squared away and capable of practicing.

Wireman
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I'll second that! I teach 4-H Shooting Sports, and that's the first thing we do in the orientation meeting; determine eye dominance. And I agree with the last part of your statement, too, Wireman-I too am cross-dominant. I just put enough rounds downrange dealing with it that it isn't an issue personally. I also trained with rifle, shotgun, and pistol left-handed as well as right handed. My groups only open up a little, I drop my Trap score about 3 birds, but my pistol, particularly bullseye (the little amount I shoot it these days.) is more accurate. For precision, I close one eye. For Minute of Goblin, I keep 'em both open. Works for me, YMMV.
 
Varminterror said:
This is not correct.

"Handedness" is a learned trait. Proof in the pudding is the fact your left hand types just as fast as your right hand and with the same accuracy, regardless of handedness.

It might feel awkward since folks are used to executing fine motor control functions with their "dominant hand," but equal dexterity can be learned with either hand.

Again, the same cannot be said about your vision - your brain favors one eye naturally. We only favor one hand because we are taught to do so when we learn different activities.
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Feeling awkward is the first reason I wouldn't do it. I don't do things with firearms that "feel awkward", plus I shoot excellent right handed, so like I said, would be ridiculous for me to attempt. Don't like it, dont need to, and as already said many of my guns are semiautomatic and I don't want brass going past my face.

Russellc
 
azrocks said:
The lack of ability to nest quotes may be causing some difficulties for us both in following the conversation.

Let me once again state... I"m NOT saying eye dominance isn't potentially problematic when shooting with both eyes open (until you learn to get around it by moving your gun and/or head). I'm simply countering the initial inaccuracy when the OP suggested the reverse: that eye dominance was an issue with one eye closed (which it is not).

That's all I'm saying. If you close one eye (doesn't matter which one), align that eye with the rear sight notch, front sight post, and the target you want to hit, you'll hit that target (assuming the sights are zeroed for the range you're shooting at and you do your part keeping the gun steady). If you then switch the eyes that are open/closed, re-position the gun so that your open eye, rear sight notch, front sight post, and the target you want to hit are once again aligned, you'll hit your target just the same.

If you still disagree with what I've just said, you need to do a bit more thinking on the subject, because I can't think of any better way to explain it.
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I am not trying to start an argument out there but every trainer I have ever seen will agree with me. You will be hard pressed to find a single instructor out there who trains cross dominant shooters to close their dominant eye and use the non-dominant eye. The first clue trainers have that their students are cross dominant is that their point of impact is off, usually in the direction of the non-dominant eye. Sure, you can chalk that up to improper sight alignment but, depending on the extent of the eye dominance, the POI will still be off even for experienced shooters using the non-dominant eye. Even closing their dominant eye does not change this. Trainers will always train the shooter to either use the non-dominant hand or, in the case of handguns, pull the gun into position below their dominant eye.

If you do not have this problem it just means that the one of your eyes is only slightly more dominant than the other. For a few lucky folks, there is no dominant eye at all.
 
Schwing said:
I am not trying to start an argument out there but every trainer I have ever seen will agree with me. You will be hard pressed to find a single instructor out there who trains cross dominant shooters to close their dominant eye and use the non-dominant eye. The first clue trainers have that their students are cross dominant is that their point of impact is off, usually in the direction of the non-dominant eye. Sure, you can chalk that up to improper sight alignment but, depending on the extent of the eye dominance, the POI will still be off even for experienced shooters using the non-dominant eye. Even closing their dominant eye does not change this. Trainers will always train the shooter to either use the non-dominant hand or, in the case of handguns, pull the gun into position below their dominant eye.

If you do not have this problem it just means that the one of your eyes is only slightly more dominant than the other. For a few lucky folks, there is no dominant eye at all.
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Sir,

You really need to slow down and actually read what I've written. Then read it again. And if you're tempted to come back on here and tell me I'm wrong, read it a third time.

I never once suggested anyone train to close either eye. If fact, I never once suggested any training regime.

All I did say - and for the last time - is this:

IF YOU ALWAYS SHOOT WITH ONE EYE CLOSED, EYE DOMINANCE NEVER ENTERS THE EQUATION. And the only reason I said this - AGAIN - is because the OP said the opposite.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that because you're right handed but left-eye dominant, you're physically incapable of closing your left eye and sighting down the rifle with your right? Seriously?

EDIT: I just re-read one of your posts. You actually did say that. You said that with your left eye closed, your groups are off by 2 FEET and 12 YARDS. I don't know what to tell you except this: Eye dominance is the least of your problems. Unless your right eye has the power to bend light wave before reaching your cornea, you're either not properly aligning the sights with your eye, not aligning the sights with the target, or not holding the firearm on target throughout the shot.
 
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Even when shooting with the non-dominant eye, there is no reason to completely close your "non-sighting" eye. A simple squint will change gear.

Nobody should be shooting one eye closed. Nobody should be training someone to shoot one eye closed. We don't get trained to train people to shoot one eye closed.
 
Varminterror said:
Even when shooting with the non-dominant eye, there is no reason to completely close your "non-sighting" eye. A simple squint will change gear.

Nobody should be shooting one eye closed. Nobody should be training someone to shoot one eye closed. We don't get trained to train people to shoot one eye closed.
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Am I taking crazy pills?

Show me one place in this thread where I suggested shooting with one eye closed was the proper technique?

It must be me. No way two people in the same thread have this much difficulty understanding me if it's not my fault. I simply haven't repeated the same statements over & over quite enough times...

azrocks said:
Agreed :)
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azrocks said:
This isn't to say you should fight your dominance, or shoot with one eye closed.
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azrocks said:
I never once suggested anyone train to close either eye. If fact, I never once suggested any training regime.
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JoePfeiffer said:
I'm sorry, but this is simply not true. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handedness
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We favor one hand by nature, as cited in the THEORIES noted in the Wikipedia page, but we are not predisposed to have a neurological disability in using the opposite hand for dexterous tasks. There have been some interesting studies published regarding the distinction of handedness in young adults vs. the generation(s) in front of them - based around the idea the younger generations don't develop as great of preferential for handedness because they grow up typing and using both hands more symmetrically than the past - including texting.

It remains the same - you're able to learn a new dexterous task with either hand and able to do symmetric and asymmetric tasks with both hands and the learned dexterity will stick. For your eyes, you're not able to develop that lead - since the visual super-imposition is not a voluntary action, so shooters don't have an analogy for "practicing trigger control" with their off hand to develop contrary to natural eye dominance.
 
azrocks said:
Show me one place in this thread where I suggested shooting with one eye closed was the proper technique?
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Why continue to bring up the point that dominance doesn't matter if you close one eye? If you acknowledge no one should shoot one eyed, why point out, repeatedly, doing so would eliminate the criticality of eye dominance? You're waving a flag saying "this is moot, but I'm going to bring it up again anyway..."?? Maybe I'm the one taking crazy pills.
 
Why don't you try following the exchange between Schwing & myself and you might catch a clue. Because it's within that context that my statements are relevant. And without that context... well... you just might make posts like your last one.

That's why I was addressing him directly - and not you.
 
Let's have a conversation about how I could easily dunk basketballs if I was 9 1/2 feet tall... Oh wait, it's a moot conversation since I can't be 9 1/2 feet tall.
 
Varminterror said:
Let's have a conversation about how I could easily dunk basketballs if I was 9 1/2 feet tall... Oh wait, it's a moot conversation since I can't be 9 1/2 feet tall.
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Do you understand what the word 'context' means? Did you ever bother to read the exchange between Schwing & myself to understand why I keep repeating myself? Of course you didn't. You just had to chime in because of your apparent deep-seated need to correct other people even when you have to make up something to correct.

It's a shame. You're obviously well-educated. But you're so arrogant and condescending no-one cares to listen to what you say.
 
So basically when folks say, "Nobody should be shooting with one eye closed", this is merely referencing the obvious benefits of increased field of view and slightly sharper image and depth perception?
 
I'm cross dominant, right handed and left-eyed. But I learned to shoot long guns right handed decades ago with no problem so don't expect to change. Shooting a pistol though, I bring the sights over to my left eye, again with no problem. I just had cataract surgery Tuesday on the right, non dominant eye and it's already stronger than the left so it will be interesting to see how it works out with the pistol. Of course the dominant eye is the dominant eye even if its vision weakens somewhat. in a year or two I'll need cataract surgery in my dominant eye.
 
I'm an NRA instructor and I'm also cross-dominant. For scoped rifles, I still shoot right handed, left eye mostly closed mostly because of how the stocks are configured. For pistol, I shoot right handed, but with my left eye but both eyes open. For iron sights, I'm learning to shoot left handed, both eyes open but I still shoot some rifles right handed, left eye closed. For shotguns, I switched to shooting exclusively left-handed with both eyes open and it's made a yuuuuuuuge difference in being able to hit things. It only took about 3 rounds of trap exclusively left handed to get it down. It's not that hard to switch. I started with an O/U since it was the easiest, but even my pump guns feel natural shooting "wrong-handed". I'd recommend taking time to learn to shoot with rifle on the shoulder of the dominant eye. It isn't hard and you won't unlearn shooting the other way in the process. You'll pickup the muscle-memory you need for the trigger pretty quickly. It just depends on if the gun can be easily fired left-handed. If it's got a big cheek swell on the left side of the stock, it may require some work. If it's a right-handed thumbhole stock, that's a whole other story.

Just my $0.02.

Matt
 
azrocks said:
Sir,

You really need to slow down and actually read what I've written. Then read it again. And if you're tempted to come back on here and tell me I'm wrong, read it a third time.

I never once suggested anyone train to close either eye. If fact, I never once suggested any training regime.

All I did say - and for the last time - is this:

IF YOU ALWAYS SHOOT WITH ONE EYE CLOSED, EYE DOMINANCE NEVER ENTERS THE EQUATION. And the only reason I said this - AGAIN - is because the OP said the opposite.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that because you're right handed but left-eye dominant, you're physically incapable of closing your left eye and sighting down the rifle with your right? Seriously?

EDIT: I just re-read one of your posts. You actually did say that. You said that with your left eye closed, your groups are off by 2 FEET and 12 YARDS. I don't know what to tell you except this: Eye dominance is the least of your problems. Unless your right eye has the power to bend light wave before reaching your cornea, you're either not properly aligning the sights with your eye, not aligning the sights with the target, or not holding the firearm on target throughout the shot.
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I am glad you are saying it for the last time because it is blatantly incorrect for MOST cross dominant shooters. The facts behind this are irrefutable. As I have stated many times, because you are lucky enough not to have this problem doesn't make you right. It makes you lucky. If your POI doesn't change when using your non-dominant eye, there would be no reason to even bother using the dominant eye EVEN when keeping both eyes open. When shooting long distance with rifles, many shooters do close their non-dominant eye. I have never met one with any proficiency that shoots with their non-dominant eye because their POI is exponentially off the further the distance. I know this as a fact as I have struggled with this my entire life.

Talk to any cross dominant shooters who shoot long distance and they will disabuse you of your notion.
 
Schwing said:
I am glad you are saying it for the last time because it is blatantly incorrect for MOST cross dominant shooters. The facts behind this are irrefutable. As I have stated many times, because you are lucky enough not to have this problem doesn't make you right. It makes you lucky. If your POI doesn't change when using your non-dominant eye, there would be no reason to even bother using the dominant eye EVEN when keeping both eyes open. When shooting long distance with rifles, many shooters do close their non-dominant eye. I have never met one with any proficiency that shoots with their non-dominant eye because their POI is exponentially off the further the distance. I know this as a fact as I have struggled with this my entire life.

Talk to any cross dominant shooters who shoot long distance and they will disabuse you of your notion.
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So your rationale is indisputable because you can't hit your target?

Maybe it's just me, but if I shot 2 feet off target at 12 yards (as you said you do), I'd be looking for other excuses - I mean reasons - for my failure. Is that 12 yards what you consider to be 'long distance'? Most people could literally shoot better than that with both eyes closed just remembering where the bulls-eye was at. Literally.

You believe what you want. But you're only handicapping yourself with your nonsensical view of the topic at hand. A closed eye - dominant or not - does not change what the open eye sees.To believe otherwise demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of human anatomy, simple physics, and the basics of sight alignment.

By the way, just for kicks I did a quick google search for 'long distance cross dominant rifle' shooters just to see if I was as special as you claim. Nope. In every forum I visited discussing the topic, numerous posters who experienced cross-dominance problems overcame their issue by either fully or partially closing their dominant eye and sighting with their non-dominant one (as I do. Easily.). Others trained themselves into changing dominance. Others changed hands so that they could keep both eyes open and sight down their dominant eye. But NO-ONE... not one single person... described a complete inability to shoot accurately with their non-dominant eye unless that eye was damaged.
 
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azrocks said:
So your rationale is indisputable because you can't hit your target?

Maybe it's just me, but if I shot 2 feet off target at 12 yards (as you said you do), I'd be looking for other excuses - I mean reasons - for my failure. Is that 12 yards what you consider to be 'long distance'? Most people could literally shoot better than that with both eyes closed just remembering where the bulls-eye was at. Literally.

You believe what you want. But you're only handicapping yourself with your nonsensical view of the topic at hand. A closed eye - dominant or not - does not change what the open eye sees.To believe otherwise demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of human anatomy, simple physics, and the basics of sight alignment.

By the way, just for kicks I did a quick google search for 'long distance cross dominant rifle' shooters just to see if I was as special as you claim. Nope. In every forum I visited discussing the topic, numerous posters who experienced cross-dominance problems overcame their issue by either fully or partially closing their dominant eye and sighting with their non-dominant one (as I do. Easily.). Others trained themselves into changing dominance. Others changed hands so that they could keep both eyes open and sight down their dominant eye. But NO-ONE... not one single person... described a complete inability to shoot accurately with their non-dominant eye unless that eye was damaged.
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I will exit the discussion here. The personal attack is unwarranted. You repeat it many of your posts that people are not actually reading what you are saying yet you are doing this yourself. At no point did I say 12 yards was long distance. I was referring very clearly to long distance rifle shooters. NO competent long distance rifle shooter uses his non-dominant eye, period.

Do as you will and I will do as I will. I will continue using my dominant eye.
 
Schwing said:
I am glad you are saying it for the last time because it is blatantly incorrect for MOST cross dominant shooters. The facts behind this are irrefutable. As I have stated many times, because you are lucky enough not to have this problem doesn't make you right. It makes you lucky. If your POI doesn't change when using your non-dominant eye, there would be no reason to even bother using the dominant eye EVEN when keeping both eyes open. When shooting long distance with rifles, many shooters do close their non-dominant eye. I have never met one with any proficiency that shoots with their non-dominant eye because their POI is exponentially off the further the distance. I know this as a fact as I have struggled with this my entire life.

Talk to any cross dominant shooters who shoot long distance and they will disabuse you of your notion.
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Howdy, glad to meet you. I shoot just fine with my non dominate eye, regardless of distance. Obviously, there is no hard and fast rule concerning this topic...it varies with the individual. Just because I or whoever has a problem with a technique, does not mean the next guy will. What one struggles with, others do with the greatest of ease. Maybe, as some suggest, some are more "dominant" than others? There seems to be no hard and fast rule here, and I think that is why so many are in disagreement here

I am right handed, left eye dominant, and all my shooting is done right handed, both eyes open unless a scope is used, then left eye shuts for the most part. It really does not matter what anyone else thinks, this works for me. I have no doubt that it may not work for some, but does for me.

Russellc
 
I've seen a couple top ranked rifle competitors who shoot bolt action rifles right handed. Their metallic and scope sights are mounted on bases extended a couple inches to the left; they're left eye dominant.
 
When you say 'shoot'....I think it depends on what type of shooting you plan to be doing as to whether the cross-dominance thing comes into play. If it's fast defensive type stuff..which is pretty much all I ever care to do with firearms..(airguns for precision indoors is different) I keep both eyes open and focus on the TARGET. I know..that's wrong. Everybody tells me this. But back in the '70's when I first began shooting in earnest there was a paper on the "Tachy Psyche Effect" and took it to heart. When presented with a stressful situation you WON'T be able to take your eyes off of the threat to find your sights. This explains much of the missing that happens in gunfights...I believe.

If you train to focus on the TARGET...then you learn how to find that front sight even when it's blurry..which of course it will be as you're not focused on it. But at combat type ranges so long as you can find the front post and put it on the target...you'll hit. This also requires good mechanicals to keep the pistol aligned with your forearm which really helps when instinctively shooting and also helps your brain pick out which sight picture to use of the two blurry ones out in front of you. Fun stuff to play with. And with practice you can get semi-dangerously accurate using this method...and it doesn't degrade much at all even under stress.
 
I'm right handed, but left eye dominant. I was taught early on to shoot all frames right handed. As a teenager, I taught myself to shoot left handed. I only slightly close my off-handed eye, depending on which hand I'm shooting with. Keeping both eyes open, even slightly, has always made a world of difference for me.
 
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