"New" SKS vs. AR Thread

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gsbuickman said:
you can also remove the gas block from an SKS, then you can pull the connecting rod and piston from it for cleaning by using a bullet tip to lift up the takedown or release lever in about 5 Seconds. The only thing you would need a punch for is to change the hand cover on the Block, then again I'm betting you could use the firing pin to change the handguard although I've never tried it. Other than that the block itself is also interchangeable
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Yep. I pull the gas tube and piston every time I clean my SKS. On rare occassions I pull the spring loaded rod that pushes the bolt carrier back. I still remember the first time I "sproinged" that rod free. That was probably the same day I thought I was going to lose my finger tip in the butt trap door. Fun times, fun times. :D
 
chicharrones said:
Yep. I pull the gas tube and piston every time I clean my SKS. On rare occassions I pull the spring loaded rod that pushes the bolt carrier back. I still remember the first time I "sproinged" that rod free. That was probably the same day I thought I was going to lose my finger tip in the butt trap door. Fun times, fun times. :D
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I read the above in your avatar, cousin Eddie's voice. Not sure why, but it's hilarious.
 
Browning said:
For the vast majority of shooters (at least the ones I've seen) this doesn't bear out on a timer.

If you take them on a course of fire and have them shoot with irons and then once they're done have them shoot the same exact course of fire I've never seen anyone run it in less time with the irons. Once they're familiarized with a dot they run it in less time.

This isn't a study I've put together with a wide range of shooters of varying skill levels, this is just my own observations from I've seen with family members, friends and co-workers at the department (many of whom initially made the same claims of being faster and more proficient with irons based on long standing use and sometimes decades of training) and running both them and myself in an effort to find out if there was something to be gained from mounting a dot in some cases.

What I have seen a few times though is that the gains in switching to a red dot weren't as great with a small minority of shooters who've really put the time in and who've shot literally truckloads of ammo to get to that level of proficiency with their iron sighted rifle.

So for a very small percentage of the shooting population who are masters of their iron sighted rifle spending $200 to $700's to buy a red dot to gain a fraction of a second isn't that important and their irons came free with their rifle.

That group of riflemen is a lot smaller than people often think it is though and sometimes they aren't even a part of it at all. It's hard to dispute the findings of a clock vs their estimation of that time.

Since this is the net and since I have absolutely no idea what your skill level is with those irons it's completely possible that you could beat your own time using a red dot. However based on previous experience of guys who said that they'd beat their own time with irons as opposed to a dot (myself included around 2004 or '05) I respectfully submit that I kind of doubt it.

Irons vs dot once they've become familiar with it they beat their own time with a dot.

Instead of lining 3 objects up it's just 2 objects.
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That very well may be but when I see African guides use a red dot for a wounded charging leopard in brush darting to and fro then I might think about it. that is where the rubber meets the road not shooting at paper. red dots are said to be faster and a lot of that is mental sort of the placebo effect. I am not belittling anyones choice you can do what you want but for me nothing faster then ghost ring site and no batteries
 
The AR today after half a century of working out kinks with numerous companies putting out good quality ones benefiting from all the improvements, while the economy of scale and competition has driven down prices is the better rifle.
The biggest shortcoming of the platform is the caliber, which can be swapped out readily for another caliber if you want longer range or better hunting.
I think the real key to the AR is how inline everything is. The center of the barrel lines up with the center of the buffer tube which is both the cheek rest and where the recoil impulse is transferred. A straight line from tip to end with the moving parts all centered. The only thing not centered is the ejection of the used brass, but it still doesn't have a reciprocating bolt on one side of the rifle.

The SKS when built well is a nice rifle. But in the late 90s you could pick up crates of brand new never used rifles with multiple that were about 100- 150 per rifle. A reliable and accurate 7.62x39 former semi-auto service rifle for that price was an unbelievable deal, priced less than it would cost to even make the rifle.
There was also cheap surplus ammunition in that caliber that could be imported, and the chinese stuff shot well and cost hardly anything. Quality inexpensive rifle, and inexpensive ammunition, it was a win-win. Costing less than half of a domestic non service quality rifle of similar power both to buy and to shoot.
Then the ammo was classified as an armor piercing handgun round and no longer imported.
They were still a good deal when they continued to climb in price for awhile, but today you are really better server by the highly modular AR platform.

The AR can be had in several calibers, you pick any part you are not happy with and replace it with numerous competing manufacturers' part, it takes optics readily, can be light weight, and a quality one does not cost much more. Today is the day of the AR, and only in places with legal restrictions would you try to make due with something else.
 
The only reason I would go with an SKS instead of an AR is as a beater. ARs are reliable, but I can't think of another semi auto that's physically tougher than an SKS.

For actually carrying around or shooting, it's the AR no question.
 
Zoogster brought up an excellent point, restrictions on AR's. Since the SKS does not have evil, criminal, anti-social features like a pistol grip, threaded barrel, detachable magazine, capacity of over 10 rounds, or possibly just being black, it conforms to the restrictions in many states.

This was not part of my original question, but it certainly is a good point. Hard to compare or choose when you have no choice.

Is the SKS restricted anywhere in the US?
 
salt&battery said:
That very well may be but when I see African guides use a red dot for a wounded charging leopard in brush darting to and fro then I might think about it. that is where the rubber meets the road not shooting at paper. red dots are said to be faster and a lot of that is mental sort of the placebo effect. I am not belittling anyones choice you can do what you want but for me nothing faster then ghost ring site and no batteries
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Where the rubber meets the road is in the military, a bullet is a lot faster than a charging leopard, and the various branches of the military have bought over one million red dot sights. It takes a little bit to get used to, but once you master it nothing else can touch it IMO. On my set-up if the RDS goes down you just hit a button and the rear sight pops up.

I don't know if any of you have ever had to replace parts in the trigger group of an SKS, if I were going to have one to get me through the zombie apocalypse I'd see about getting a whole nother trigger assembly to put in my pack. It's not a huge ordeal or anything but you need a few tools and a well lit table, in my case it was the safety spring that broke.

The "Filthy 14" BCM rifle that S.W.A.T. magazine tested ran something like 26,000 rounds before it was even cleaned. I'm pretty obsessive about cleaning my guns but my grandson and I shot my 6920 exactly 900 rounds in one afternoon and it was working just as well when we quit as it was when we started. I've owned two SKS's over the years, still have one, they are both (the AR and the SKS) very reliable firearms.
 
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While I concede the superiority of the AR family in most all categories I plead guilty to fondness for the SKS. I have both but my modernized SKS is my favorite. I'm an old fart and I like its handling characteristics (once modified to taste) and I love using stripper clips.

P1050503.JPG
 
Just going by my fuzzy memory, I think the SKS may have had the edge 25 years ago as a defender rifle. The AR was considered accurate but unreliable by many and requiring frequest and meticulous cleaning. The SKS had a reputation for being quite accurate, very reliable, and robust.

I'm not sure exactly how it came to be, but today's AR can be fired for thousands of rounds without cleaning so long as the BCG is soaked with lube now and then. So now it's accurate and reliable, and also very popular. So in a way, the AR has caught up with the SKS, except it probably will never be as robust as the SKS given its lightweight design.
 
if you were going to shove me out of a helicopter into the rocky mtns with a parachute and one gun, im not sure there would be a better choice than the sks. even if you hit the ground hard the sks would likely survive.

but as ive said before yu really have to know how to shoot them to be accurate. but they ca n be accurate.
 
Holmes375 said:
While I concede the superiority of the AR family in most all categories I plead guilty to fondness for the SKS. I have both but my modernized SKS is my favorite. I'm an old fart and I like its handling characteristics (once modified to taste) and I love using stripper clips.

View attachment 226623
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That is a very pretty looking SKS. I for one really enjoy my SKS and I'll never give them up just because my ARs are superior in just about every way. The SKS for the most part is a much more rugged design than the AR. If I was asked to depend on a single rifle for the rest of my life in a situation where spare parts were not an option, I'd stick with the trusty old SKSin OEM configuration. I've never had a single malfunction that wasn't due to ammunition or crappy detachable magazines.
 
I love shooting my SKS's, but I also love shooting my AR's. For inside of a building I would choose the lighter and shorter barrelled weapon which would be an AR. If I was defending my home from a night time intruder it would be with a .38 revolver or a 12 ga pump with the barrel shortened to the legal limit. I do own all of the above.
 
salt&battery said:
That very well may be but when I see African guides use a red dot for a wounded charging leopard in brush darting to and fro then I might think about it. that is where the rubber meets the road not shooting at paper. red dots are said to be faster and a lot of that is mental sort of the placebo effect. I am not belittling anyones choice you can do what you want but for me nothing faster then ghost ring site and no batteries
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So you're going to subordinate your choice of what to use for defense or hunting because of what a particularly technologically slow moving segment in the hunting community uses or doesn't use? In Africa they didn't even use scoped rifles for a time over iron sighted ones at distance despite the advantages because that's just what they'd always used prior to that. However now for some animals they do.

Seems a bit short sighted to me.

I was a bit curious as to what they use as my only experience consists of listening to my father in law who's been over to Kenya, Botswana, South Africa, Tanzania and Zimbabwe for safaris. He's more of a Cape Buffalo guy though, he used this ancient English double rifle from the 1880's for that (gotta be traditional right?) although he does have a leopard (don't know what he shot it with). At any rate first search took me here.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/scope-for-leopard-hunt.25865/page-2

Second took me here ...

https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/community/photo_gallery_list.php?a=Hunting

So it would seem that even they're starting to use dots and illuminated reticle scopes because of the advantage that gives you at night and in failing light. I use them over here for hog hunting for the same reason, you can see where your point of aim is in poor light.
 
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i own both rifles, and while I enjoy my SKS, i simply can't compare it to my ar-15 for most purposes, including defensive use. I find the ar to be handier, more accurate, easier to reload rapidly, easier to learn how to shoot accurately, etc....
 
PowerG said:
Where the rubber meets the road is in the military, a bullet is a lot faster than a charging leopard, and the various branches of the military have bought over one million red dot sights. It takes a little bit to get used to, but once you master it nothing else can touch it IMO. On my set-up if the RDS goes down you just hit a button and the rear sight pops up.

I don't know if any of you have ever had to replace parts in the trigger group of an SKS, if I were going to have one to get me through the zombie apocalypse I'd see about getting a whole nother trigger assembly to put in my pack. It's not a huge ordeal or anything but you need a few tools and a well lit table, in my case it was the safety spring that broke.

The "Filthy 14" BCM rifle that S.W.A.T. magazine tested ran something like 26,000 rounds before it was even cleaned. I'm pretty obsessive about cleaning my guns but my grandson and I shot my 6920 exactly 900 rounds in one afternoon and it was working just as well when we quit as it was when we started. I've owned two SKS's over the years, still have one, they are both (the AR and the SKS) very reliable firearms.
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military does not pay for anything and I do not see them ever being in a war where the other side has a navy air force artillery tanks etc. so they even get the leopold $5500 scope $1200 trijicons with $1000 magnifier etc. the housing on an aimpoint or red dot blocks field of view for me.
I never heard of the trigger group going bad in an SKS. have to look into it.

as far as the AR going that long without cleaning is true but that is under range conditions. it better go that long after 60 years of tweaking it. wonder how long they would work in a situation like Stalingrad in a filthy trench at 30 below
 
Browning said:
So you're going to subordinate your choice of what to use for defense or hunting because of what a particularly technologically slow moving segment in the hunting community uses or doesn't use? In Africa they didn't even use scoped rifles for a time over iron sighted ones at distance despite the advantages because that's just what they'd always used prior to that, but they do for some animals now.

Seems a bit short sighted to me.

I was a bit curious as to what they use as my only experience consists of listening to my father in law who's been over to Kenya, Botswana, South Africa, Tanzania and Zimbabwe for safaris. He's more of a Cape Buffalo guy though, he used this ancient English double rifle from the 1880's for that (gotta be traditional right?) although he does have a leopard (don't know what he shot it with). At any rate first search took me here.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/scope-for-leopard-hunt.25865/page-2

Second took me here ...

https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/community/photo_gallery_list.php?a=Hunting

So it would seem that even they're starting to use dots and illuminated reticle scopes because of the advantage that gives you at night and in failing light. I use them over here for hog hunting for the same reason, you can see where your point of aim is in poor light.
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a lot of leopard hunting is done from up in a tree where the cat is baited on the ground. a lighted scope would be great for that. I saw on you tube a guy in the brush wound a leopard he was real pissed charged the 3 guys mauled the guide and was finally shot down. in that situation you can take a red dot I will take express site or ghost ring site.
as far as the link from trijicon they are just pushing their product which has worked well for them
 
salt&battery said:
military does not pay for anything and I do not see them ever being in a war where the other side has a navy air force artillery tanks etc.
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Guess you missed the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan huh? :)

so they even get the leopold $5500 scope $1200 trijicons with $1000 magnifier etc. the housing on an aimpoint or red dot blocks field of view for me.
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Try a different mount at a different height. If it's blocking your view that's what the issue is.

as far as the AR going that long without cleaning is true but that is under range conditions. it better go that long after 60 years of tweaking it. wonder how long they would work in a situation like Stalingrad in a filthy trench at 30 below
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Who knows? Not any real way of telling and there's no way of really accounting for the dust and debris in from war in testing. Not in a way that would be realistic anyway. There have been plenty of tests done involving dirt and sand in simulated conditions and in those the AR has been doing better than the AK. I haven't seen any of the AR vs the SKS simply because it's considered obsolete.

Defending my family or going hog or deer hunting isn't Stalingrad though.

salt&battery said:
a lot of leopard hunting is done from up in a tree where the cat is baited on the ground. a lighted scope would be great for that. I saw on you tube a guy in the brush wound a leopard he was real pissed charged the 3 guys mauled the guide and was finally shot down.
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That's kind of my point.

However you also have the option of flipping it to 1x for close quarters on the variable. The lower power variable fire dot type and the Trijicon RMR's are the two becoming the most popular.

Was the PH who got mauled using iron sights or a red dot sight or illuminated reticle sight?

in that situation you can take a red dot I will take express site or ghost ring site.
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Okay, I will.

Least I'll be able to see my sight. :neener:

as far as the link from trijicon they are just pushing their product which has worked well for them
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I was referring more to the African hunting forum where they were talking about leopard and red dots and illuminated reticles specifically.

If I hadn't listed anything regarding hunters going after African game in the bush in close quarters specifically then you just would have just answered something to the effect of "Sure, they're fine for deer but not leopard or lion or Cape buffalo or ___fill in the blank___".
 
Browning said:
Guess you missed the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan huh? :)


Try a different mount at a different height. If it's blocking your view that's what the issue is.



Who knows? Not any real way of telling and there's no way of really accounting for the dust and debris in from war in testing. Not in a way that would be realistic anyway. There have been plenty of tests done involving dirt and sand in simulated conditions and in those the AR has been doing better than the AK. I haven't seen any of the AR vs the SKS simply because it's considered obsolete.

Defending my family or going hog or deer hunting isn't Stalingrad though.



That's kind of my point.

However you also have the option of flipping it to 1x for close quarters on the variable. The lower power variable fire dot type and the Trijicon RMR's are the two becoming the most popular.

Was the PH who got mauled using iron sights or a red dot sight or illuminated reticle sight?


Okay, I will.

Least I'll be able to see my sight. :neener:


I was referring more to the African hunting forum where they were talking about leopard and red dots and illuminated reticles specifically.

If I hadn't listed anything regarding hunters going after African game in the bush in close quarters specifically then you just would have just answered something to the effect of "Sure, they're fine for deer but not leopard or lion or Cape buffalo or ___fill in the blank___".
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lol I missed the part where the afghans bombed the US with cruise missiles fired from submarines destroyers and jets or them use drones. then I missed artillery barrages fired and missed a blitzkrieg tank offensive. missed them sinking our aircraft carriers using nuke powered subs :D any thing the military uses does not impress me in the least. over a trillion will be spent on the F-35 the worst pile of junk ever fielded in the history of aviation. then the new navy ships some look like a Japanese pill box and taking on water have to go back to port and others had failed engines one in the panama canal had to be towed back
do not know how to link stuff but go on u tube and put in leopard attacks man you will see the leopard maul the PH . he had some wicked gashes but was standing up and in some pain.
I like the rifle with nothing on the top of it and can site the barrel real close if need. all that junk on the rail some make it worse with a magnifier, gets in my way.
I am not saying bad about red dots but a ghost ring set up and an empty rail is best for me. others can do what they think is best. the mind is a powerful thing proved by the placebo effect
 
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salt&battery said:
the mind is a powerful thing proved by the placebo effect
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This cracks me up. You keep saying red dot benefits are a result of the placebo effect, yet you admitted that you've never devoted the time to actually learning how to use one.

The mind certainly is powerful...
 
Inebriated said:
This cracks me up. You keep saying red dot benefits are a result of the placebo effect, yet you admitted that you've never devoted the time to actually learning how to use one.

The mind certainly is powerful...
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I do not have a month to take of work spare $20k laying around to shoot 5000 rounds to get "good" with a red dot. I have 4 red dots which is why I know I can do better with ghost ring sites and have a empty rail on the rifle not cluttered with obtrusive magnifier with a red dot. I used both a dot and ghost ring and I am much better without a dot blocking out some of the FOV
 
Holmes375 said:
While I concede the superiority of the AR family in most all categories I plead guilty to fondness for the SKS. I have both but my modernized SKS is my favorite. I'm an old fart and I like its handling characteristics (once modified to taste) and I love using stripper clips.

View attachment 226623
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. . . back to our regular programming of the thread, that is one very nice looking SKS. :cool:
 
There never was any argument about which one is better, and there remains no argument. In nearly every category I can think of, the AR trumps an SKS in spades. Magazine capacity, feed reliability, parts availability, consistency of manufacture, material quality, accuracy, weight, functional reliability (assuming proper care). and more that I'm simply too lazy to type. The only - and I mean only - significant advantage an SKS ever had was price (of both firearms and ammunition), so if you're throwing that out the window, there's nothing left to grab onto.

AR FTMFW
 
salt&battery said:
lol I missed the part where the afghans bombed the US with cruise missiles fired from submarines destroyers and jets or them use drones. then I missed artillery barrages fired and missed a blitzkrieg tank offensive. missed them sinking our aircraft carriers using nuke powered subs :D any thing the military uses does not impress me in the least. over a trillion will be spent on the F-35 the worst pile of junk ever fielded in the history of aviation. then the new navy ships some look like a Japanese pill box and taking on water have to go back to port and others had failed engines one in the panama canal had to be towed back
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Maybe they aren't as good professionally or as technologically advanced as the US Armed Forces, but to not even act like they exist or that they can produce casualties is kinda stupid

do not know how to link stuff but go on u tube and put in leopard attacks man you will see the leopard maul the PH . he had some wicked gashes but was standing up and in some pain.
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So the Iraqi armed forces and the Taliban are nothing, but look at the wicked gashes caused by that leopard? Lol

Seriously, yeah...for animals they're pretty evil. That's why it helps to be able to see your rifle sight in pitch black darkness before you shoot them.

I like the rifle with nothing on the top of it and can site the barrel real close if need. all that junk on the rail some make it worse with a magnifier, gets in my way.
I am not saying bad about red dots but a ghost ring set up and an empty rail is best for me. others can do what they think is best. the mind is a powerful thing proved by the placebo effect
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Ghost rings are great, they're my favorite iron sight. They just aren't as visible in poor light and they aren't as quick as a dot sight. For me low magnifification illuminated reticle scopes (which are a cousin of red dots) are about as quick as ghost rings.

salt&battery said:
I do not have a month to take of work spare $20k laying around to shoot 5000 rounds to get "good" with a red dot. I have 4 red dots which is why I know I can do better with ghost ring sites and have a empty rail on the rifle not cluttered with obtrusive magnifier with a red dot. I used both a dot and ghost ring and I am much better without a dot blocking out some of the FOV
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You're doing something wrong then.

It doesn't take 5000 rds to become proficient with them either. That's the beauty of them, several hundred rds at most. Maybe even not that if you're an experienced shooter.
 
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Browning said:
Maybe they aren't as good professionally or as technologically advanced as the US Armed Forces, but to not even act like they exist or that they can produce casualties is kinda stupid



So the Iraqi armed forces and the Taliban are nothing, but look at the wicked gashes caused by that leopard? Lol

Seriously, yeah...for animals they're pretty evil. That's why it helps to be able to see your rifle sight in pitch black darkness before you shoot them.


Ghost rings are great, they're my favorite iron sight. They just aren't as visible in poor light and they aren't as quick as a dot sight. For me low magnifification illuminated reticle scopes (which are a cousin of red dots) are about as quick as ghost rings.



You're doing something wrong then.

It doesn't take 5000 rds to become proficient with them either. That's the beauty of them, several hundred rds at most. Maybe even not that if you're an experienced shooter.
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To echo your last paragraph.... I shot irons exclusively on ARs for several years.

I'd estimate that it took appx. 30 rounds to sight in my aimpoint, and maybe 3 or 4 magazines to begin feeling comfortable with it. I'd think that would be average, as I consider myself an average shooter.

Its great for people to learn and use irons. There's no downside to it. But using an rds after becoming proficient with irons should help decent shooters improve in both speed and hit probability. It has for me, and I don't think it's merely in my head.
 
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