.45 Caliber Cartridges best all around short range defense and hunter? Or not?

The only one which might semi realistically bridge that gap would be .45 Colt, though it's a stretch. If you're looking at sledgehammer loads from a carbine you could get to biggish game (though not really dangerous game), and in a combat oriented DA revolver you could of course handle "social work" with a milder load, possibly a hollow point.

Neither makes a whole lot of sense to push into that role if you've got other choices but there is an undying love of these "pretend you've only got ONE gun" threads where such compromises get justified.

I would say .45 Colt standard pressure hollow point loads for self defense, any number of hard cast hollow point .45 Colt loads for defense against smaller predators, and number of .45 Colt +P hard cast loads against large predators such as the bears, and any number of .45 Colt or .45 Colt +P loads against any North American game animal up to an including the bears with +P loads from a rifle.

So .45 Colt.

Bump it up to .454 Casull and you are in business.

Of all the popular calibers that one can run from a popular pistol w/o getting into any fancy
choices I think the modern ammunition like the 10mm full power would provide superior firepower no matter what the scenario.
Another question is, can the shooter shoot the 10mm effectively and accurately?
Ultimately one needs to shoot something they feel good shooting and can make contact with no matter what caliber.

There's a huge difference between the .45-65, .45-70, .45-90, .45-120, and the .45 Colt(the Long Colt is the same thing), .45 Schofield and .45 ACP. Except for that silly BFR, the rifle cartridges don't come in handguns.
Black powder, non-cartridge guns, primarily not .45 calibre. Prior to the SAA, Colt was making .36 and .44 calibre revolvers. Not .45's. Except for the Army, there were far fewer Colt SAA's than Hollywood would like everybody to believe too. Colts were far too expensive for the average guy. That's if he had owned firearm at all. $16.75(the civilian price of one) in 1873 was a huge amount of money. About half a month's pay or more for the average cowboy, who rarely owned anything but his saddle. In 1870, a labourer made around $9.36 per week.
Nothing, rifle or handgun, will stop anything in its tracks. Physics doesn't allow it.

The nominal .44 percussions shot .45" balls and bullets, as did the .44 cartridge conversions. A change in terminology, not projectile diameter.

Jim Watson said:

The nominal .44 percussions shot .45" balls and bullets, as did the .44 cartridge conversions. A change in terminology, not projectile diameter.

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My 45acp conversation cylinder for my .44 1858 Remington agrees.


As much as I love my 45's (even my often forgotten.450 Marlin) I feel confident the .22 has been around longer than the .45 but I could be wrong, I was once before.

I am not really sure what is being looked for, but I will say with confidence, that there is nothing that lives in the lower 48, that a 45 Colt, with a hard cast 255gn FNSWC, over 10.0gn of Unique will not bring down, even out of a handgun with 4" barrel!

Gator Weiss said:

The USA is renowned for its .45 Caliber loadings. From the .45 Caliber black powder non-cartridge guns to the cartridge guns in 45-65, 45-70, 45-90, 45-120, 45 Colt, 45 Long Colt, all the way down to the venerable .45ACP. There are other big game loads and probably a few more pistol variants as well. Could it be that .45 Caliber American loadings are the longest running on the planet? It may be that every 45 Caliber loading is capable of its intended mission and hence may well be the ultimate short range stopper for hunting or defense. There is something .45 Caliber loaded in America for nearly every task. It works whether it expands on impact or not. It works in the brush, in the heavy rain and snow, in the wind. Is there ONE cartridge in .45 that works pistol or rifle for big game and defense?

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Nah.. .50 GI is bigger....

Deaf

My observation is that the best .45 handgun round is a poor rifle round.

Bob Wright

What is best?

I have a revolver and rifle in .454 casull. Is Casull the best .45 handgun round? If so, it makes a fairly decent rifle round if your goal is firing moderate weight (~250gr) bullets at moderate speed (about 2000fps). If not, what criteria are we using to judge?

The 45/70 will kill most big game at moderate ranges, and it will kill a person way out there.
If it could hit that person.

Zeke

.22 short is the longest running popular cartridge.

Is there ONE cartridge in .45 that works pistol or rifle for big game and defense?

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No. The cartridges are pretty much either one or the other.

.45 ACP is severely lacking out of a carbine and is generally unsuitable for hunting.
Single action defense revolvers are for the bold.
Magnum defense revolvers are for Harold Callahan.

Sorry, but no! The legend of 45 caliber being superior is largely based on mythology, not facts. The 45-70 was the original poodle shooter. The army went from a 58 caliber black powder round to a 45 caliber black powder round in 1873. It was a failure. In the 1870's it was considered under powered and unsuitable for anything larger than whitetail. By the 1890's rounds like the 7X57 had proven to be vastly superior as both a military and hunting round and the 45-70 was all but dead. Even the 30-30 was seen as vastly better in every way. Now, with modern loads the 45-70 is a legitimate big game round, but is no more effective than typical 30-06 class rounds on even the largest game.

100 years later Marlin revived the 45-70 with colorful advertising hinting that it had been a successful buffalo rifle. The problem with that is that the 45-70 was introduced in 1873. All the Buffalo were gone before the Civil War started in 1861, 12 years earlier. In fact laws were passed banning buffalo hunting to preserve the handful left in 1874, one year after the 45-70 was introduced.

As far as 45 ACP is concerned the 38 Super and 357 magnum were both introduced for LE because the 38 Specal and 45 ACP handguns of the day simply were ineffective during the depression era fight against organized crime. By 1946 the army was disappointed in both the 45 and 1911 pistol, most of the GI's who carried it did not care much for it. After WW-2 the Army conducted extensive tests and determined that the 9mm out performed 45 ACP in every test when using FMJ ammo. The Army wanted to make the change in 1946, but with no war and no budget the plan was shelved and forgotten. The legend of the 1911 and 45 ACP were mostly the result of articles written by gun writers after WW-2. Most of that writing was long on hyperbole and short on facts.

There is myth and legend, and then there is fact. Iraqveteran8888's Youtube video on "what is a brush gun" helps to parse out some of these issues. The idea that a large mass, slower moving round can penetrate brush without deflection and make hits on target demonstrates the advantages of things like 45-70 over high velocity spitzers at short range in brush.

If you are hunting in open country and making a long distance shot, high velocity .30 cal rounds work better. In brush at 100 yards or closer, the straight walled .45 cal round rifle round is more effective.

In a handgun round, situation and bullet design also matters. If you have to use ball ammo in a military situation, a round of .45 is more effective than a round of 9mm at at CQB distances. Once other issues are factored in, like trying to maximize magazine capacity, civilian use of a hollow point for self defense, or trying to penetrate cover or body armor, then other calibers and bullet designs are better.

The theory that a large caliber round has more effectiveness in all situations is wrong. The theory that a large caliber round has more effectiveness in some applications is still correct.

I think that .45 is maybe the " golden mean " of size.

Unsure of your reasoning there, kbbailey. You think .45 caliber is the perfect middle between extremes of size? There's not a whole lot bigger than .45 caliber in the shootin' world so that seems unlikely.

I've done a little calculating and was wondering if you were making a mathematical pun on 1.618, but I don't see that either.

.45 Caliber Cartridges best all around short range defense and hunter? Or not?

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.41, .44, .45... whatever it takes. Just give me something beginning with .4, please. Big and slow is my M.O.

The Buffalo were gone by 1861? Not so. The Western Rail Road was laid during the Civil War in 1862. The sport shooting from trains was popular into the 1870s. In the Winter of 1871-1872 1.8 Million Buffalo hides were shipped East by rail. The Southern herds were hunted into the 1880s. The last Buffalo were shot in Wyoming in the 1890s. The Winchester Mdl. 1886 was made for Buffalo hunting. The demand for these rifles was declining by 1890. Many of these rifles were shipped to Africa.

kozak6 said:

.22 short is the longest running popular cartridge.



No. The cartridges are pretty much either one or the other.

.45 ACP is severely lacking out of a carbine and is generally unsuitable for hunting.
Single action defense revolvers are for the bold.
Magnum defense revolvers are for Harold Callahan.

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That statement, about the .45acp, depends at what distances you are talking. I have not shot an animal with my JR .45acp Carbine, however at 150/160 yards, with FMJ 230 Ball Ammo, it will penetrate 3" & 4" (Clean Through) of hard wood, trees, boards, etc. I feel pretty confident, that it would be very effective, on deer size game and smaller.

By 1946 the army was disappointed in both the 45 and 1911 pistol, most of the GI's who carried it did not care much for it. After WW-2 the Army conducted extensive tests and determined that the 9mm out performed 45 ACP in every test when using FMJ ammo. The Army wanted to make the change in 1946, but with no war and no budget the plan was shelved and forgotten. The legend of the 1911 and 45 ACP were mostly the result of articles written by gun writers after WW-2. Most of that writing was long on hyperbole and short on facts.

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I wish Jeff Cooper were alive to critique your piece of comedic prose...

The pre-Cooper bad reputation of the .45 ACP was based on GIs with bare familiarization, hardly training, on well worn range guns.

I carry a .45acp handgun for self-defense every day.

For hunting [deer], I'd rather have a .44 Magnum, specifically a S&W Model 29-2 and a Winchester Model 92 clone of some sort, preferably with a 20" barrel.

I have the revolver. I won't worry about the long gun until there are IT jobs out there that have payed vacation, without which I won't be doing any hunting anyway.

Jim Watson said:

The pre-Cooper bad reputation of the .45 ACP was based on GIs with bare familiarization, hardly training, on well worn range guns.

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And crappy ammunition.

Alvin York seemed to do pretty well, even with an M1911 and WWI quality ammunition.