Why so many rounds?

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It's all about tactical fidelity and the threat risk assessment matrix (TRAM). When you analyze the TRAM and compare it to the most likely tactical threat engagement index factor (TTEIF) only then can you choose the magazine capacity for your weapons system platform.

I choose 8+1 in my Makarov PM with two 8 round mags in reserve.
 
Why ask for it then (under the pretense that such a number of incidents couldn't be found ... when obviously they can)?

Next time skip the drama and just say 'I carry X ... because I don't believe that such an event will ever happen to me'.

No, they can't be found. Stick around for my round count of Brownings post.
 
Stick around for my round count of Brownings post.
Look up Lance Thomas. A non-LEO shopkeeper who fired 40 rounds in 4 different shootouts, each of which pitted him against multiple opponents, always at least 2, once there were 5. During the 4 attacks, he killed 5 out of the 11 attackers he faced.

He had a 5 round gun during the first attack and he used 3 rounds neutralizing one of the two attackers. Fortunately the other one fled. After doing some simple math, that was the last time Mr. Thomas handicapped himself with that kind of a round count.
 
Ok Browning, lets take a look at the video's you posted and see how many rounds were fired.

Uber driver---I count one round with one bad guy down. I think I saw a second round fired, so I'm counting two rounds unless you have other information.

Waffle House---very weird deal. Two guys eating while a third plays maniac in a corner? In any case, good guy put three rounds into bad guys stomach. So, three rounds.

Store clerk, can't see well enough to tell. One guy in pink shot, so that's one round. A second guy in black acting like he took one round. So, I'm counting two.

Sucker punch is one of those rare cases where you wind up in a mob. The problem is that a high cap isn't going to save you. You'll fire off three or four rounds and they'll either run or swarm you or kill you. But, I will concede that this is a situation that a guy going about his daily life could encounter.

Three thugs attack is mislabeled. There were two, a man and a woman. Unknown how many shots were fired---at least two.

Mugging victim Akron---four guys, two rounds fired. One round, they went away and then came back. Second round they ran for good. Two rounds.

From the NRA link of Ohio shootings:
Pizza Shop robbery, one bad guy shot seven times.

Road rage, one bad guy, no shots fired.

Newspaper ad, one bad guy. Good guy fires six rounds, bad guy three. Good guy not injured.

Robbery victim, shot three times, one round fired back.

Car Thief, one bad guy, one round--one dead bad guy.

Lunch wagon driver, two bad guys attempted robbery. Good guy--one round from a .45 into BG's leg.

Robbery Victim #2 three bad guys,one round fired by the good guy into the stomach of a bad guy.

Gun store owner, robbery. Unknown number of BG's or rounds.

Talk show host--- interesting one where ten men surrounded the bad guy. Looks like two rounds, two hits.

Hotel Manager--multiple rounds, exact count unknown.

Crime Stoppers president--defensive display, no rounds fired.

Dog Walker, four rounds into a single attempted robber

Homeowner--two rounds into one BG.

Pizza deliveryman is interesting. Held by four BG's, he got to his gun and fired three rounds, stopping the attack.

Family businessmen---one armed robber. Good guy fires four shots, BG ran.

Small business owner---one robber,two rounds and BG runs.

Elderly cancer survivor--one BG, survivor fires five rounds.

Music store owner--one robber, two rounds by the good guy and robber runs.

Electronics buyer---four BG, good guy fires one round hits two BGs, stops robbery attempt.

The most rounds that can be counted with certainty is six rounds. Even against multiple attackers, two to four rounds gets the job done.

And again, I don't care what you carry but let's be realistic about the need for 12, 14, 18 or 20 rounds. The goal is to carry everyday, and carrying the single stack autos and smaller revolvers is a lot easier than carrying a full size duty weapon.
 
Look up Lance Thomas. A non-LEO shopkeeper who fired about 40 rounds in 4 different shootouts, each of which pitted him against multiple opponents, always at least 2, once there were 5. During the 4 attacks, he killed 5 out of the 11 attackers he faced.

He had a 5 round gun during the first attack and he used 3 rounds neutralizing one of the attackers. Fortunately the other one fled. After doing some simple math, that was the last time Mr. Thomas handicapped himself with that kind of a round count.

You can't count somebody like Lance. We're not talking about store owners, this is about you or me going to Walmart for groceries, or to the gas station, or out to the mall.
 
You can't count somebody like Lance.
And that's because there's a logical explanation for why a shopkeeper will need more rounds to defend against 2 attackers than "you or me" going out for groceries would need to defend against 2 attackers? Or because his real-world experiences don't support your premise?
 
So you went through and painstakingly reviewed all those gunfights, how many of those shots missed?

What were the guns used?

Since small concealable low round count pistols and revolvers are popular would any of the CHL holders have fired more rds if they had been available to them?

Those are also a small snapshot of CHL'ers defending themselves in a very narrow set of circumstances.

Which leads me to my next point, the really narrow criteria you imposed asking for examples of armed robberies (but only on the street, apparently no store owners), car jacking and kidnappings (but not in certain higher crime States with higher rates of gang membership and higher crime rates) are generally going to be short and fast affairs with low rd counts. If not tied to the scene in some way both the attackers and the victim(s) will immediately leave the area once the victim or victims resist with a gun (or guns) and shots are exchanged.

Many criminals flee at the mere sight of a gun, are we to be limited merely to unloaded guns because that sometimes happens?

You're excluding data right into coming up with a conclusion without first examining or even attempting to examine all of the data or even asking questions like "Under great stress where their life is in danger of being taken how often will people miss?"

You're also purposely excluding the many of the other situations that gun owners sometimes find themselves to push the idea that there's little point to have a moderate or high capacity pistol (as presumably no one will use those rds anyway).

Racially motivated mob assaults, gang related violent crimes, some sexual assaults, active shooters and armed robberies by crews of professional armed robbers are all going to have either many attackers looking to hurt or kill or they'll be really well armed.

There aren't many things that you can choose about an attack or a potential gun fight. You can't choose the place because you aren't initiating the attack. You can't choose the time. You can't choose the number of people who will attack you, their size, their armament, the terrain as well as a huge number of other factors. However you can choose how well you're trained and you can choose what you carry with you every day.
 
Why so many rounds in the magazine? I’m not talking of SWAT team members or LEOs who may find themselves at anytime under fire from multiple armed ne’er-do-good, but of the guns used as daily ballast in the waistband by Joe-you-and-me.

My thoughts are that for the realistic threat faced by the vast majority of us, non-professionally involved in violent action, there are more disadvantages than advantages to the trend of more-is-better.

High capacity magazines are heavy, and add a lot of bulk to handguns’ grips. So much so that many, if not most, people prefer the feel of a single-stack to that of any double-stack - but they still get a double-stack...

I’m wondering because I’ve spent quite some time trotting across the wilderness, chasing critters sized like a small bungalow, and as friendly as an escaped lifer high on PCP. In my nick of the woods, we do so with bolt action rifles having a magazine capacity of three to five rounds. Some even elicit to use double barrel rifles with the grand total of two (2) rounds before a cumbersome reload. The logic behind the double is that it’s faster than any bolt for the second shot, and if a problem happens and you don’t sort it in two rounds, you’re dead anyway.

The speed at which events unfold out there is such that there is no time for spray-and-pray, and no scope either: if you shoot “center of mass or thereabout”, you’re not going to stop anything coming for you, and whatever you’re shooting at will mash you into a pink frothy pulp before it even starts feeling dizzy.

The only way to terminate an attack with immediate effect is to switch off the control panel, which means a direct hit to the brain - preferably the brain stem, or the highest part of the spinal cord. This is achieved with aimed shots. When two tons or more of pissed-off thing with sharp horns, teeth, or tusks is incoming at 20-30 miles per hour from fifty or even a hundred feet away, you have a couple of seconds to hit the right spot, three if you’re lucky. You hit it once, you’re good for a stiff one by the campfire in the evening. You miss it fifteen times, they’ll need a scraper to get you all in one heap before throwing you in the bed of the pickup.

It may be of passing interest to know that in Zimbabwe, the law states that the red line within which you can invoke self-defense for shooting a charging elephant is ten meters. Eleven yards. At 20 mph, do your maths - but hurry up...

Now, whether the critter stands on two legs or four, the general blueprint is the same: pump and piping outlay, electrical system, computer box, intake, air filters, exhaust, ball joints, suspensions. And gunfight after gunfight relentlessly hammers the point home: too many times, shooting “in the black” does not end a fight. One hit in the right place does.

So, watching videos of encounters where one or the other shooter empties fifteen rounds in one-and-a-half second in the general direction of whatever bothers him at the moment, I always think “Why the excitement, why not aim?”.

Sitting perilously at my desk, with the luxury of a rewind button, I play and replay, and still think “Why so many rounds?”

Could it be because the high capacity magazines have led people to rely on quantity instead of quality? Was it like that when the usual load was six in a wheelgun or seven in a 1911?

I’d be curious to hear from the old school guys around here...

Most shots fired in anger miss. I was surprised to learn just how consistent the pattern is. Various explanations have been put forth. One is the fright factor inherent in bullets traveling the wrong way, toward you not away. Some people have supposed, in addition, that most of us have a deep-seated subconscious objection to shooting someone, thus a built-in tendency to miss. But whatever the cause, a whole lot of bullets get launched that do not hit their human targets. http://shootery.blogspot.com/2013/01/why-private-citizens-really-do-need.html
 
And that's because there's a logical explanation for why a shopkeeper will need more rounds to defend against 2 attackers than "you or me" going out for groceries would need to defend against 2 attackers? Or because his real-world experiences don't support your premise?

If you really knew the story about Lance you'd know he had a jewelry store. That's a prime target for armed robbers doing a smash and grab.And it wasn't just two.
 
So you went through and painstakingly reviewed all those gunfights, how many of those shots missed?

What were the guns used?

Since small concealable low round count pistols and revolvers are popular would any of the CHL holders have fired more rds if they had been available to them?

Those are also a small snapshot of CHL'ers defending themselves in a very narrow set of circumstances.

Which leads me to my next point, the really narrow criteria you imposed asking for examples of armed robberies (but only on the street, apparently no store owners), car jacking and kidnappings (but not in certain higher crime States with higher rates of gang membership and higher crime rates) are generally going to be short and fast affairs with low rd counts. If not tied to the scene in some way both the attackers and the victim(s) will immediately leave the area once the victim or victims resist with a gun (or guns) and shots are exchanged.

Many criminals flee at the mere sight of a gun, are we to be limited merely to unloaded guns because that sometimes happens?

You're excluding data right into coming up with a conclusion without first examining or even attempting to examine all of the data or even asking questions like "Under great stress where their life is in danger of being taken how often will people miss?"

You're also purposely excluding the many of the other situations that gun owners sometimes find themselves to push the idea that there's little point to have a moderate or high capacity pistol (as presumably no one will use those rds anyway).

Racially motivated mob assaults, gang related violent crimes, some sexual assaults, active shooters and armed robberies by crews of professional armed robbers are all going to have either many attackers looking to hurt or kill or they'll be really well armed.

There aren't many things that you can choose about an attack or a potential gun fight. You can't choose the place because you aren't initiating the attack. You can't choose the time. You can't choose the number of people who will attack you, their size, their armament, the terrain as well as a huge number of other factors. However you can choose how well you're trained and you can choose what you carry with you every day.

Oh come on, really? You post a video of a guy in a waffle house dumping three rounds into a guys gut and you want to talk about misses? You post a video of an Uber driver who I could only count one or two shots and want to speculate on how many shots he might have taken if he hadn't had what?---a three shooter?!

And as you apparently don't read well, I'll say again, I don't give a damn what you carry or how many rounds are in it. Just don't tell me a usual armed defense is going to need a high cap gun when you sure can't prove it by the links you posted.

I guess I'll leave you guys to fantasy land where every defensive shoot requires scads of ammo and only the uber trained tacticool sorts prevail.
 
If you listen to the tactical experts (callsign: tactisperts)
Oh come on, really? You post a video of a guy in a waffle house dumping three rounds into a guys gut and you want to talk about misses? You post a video of an Uber driver who I could only count one or two shots and want to speculate on how many shots he might have taken if he hadn't had what?---a three shooter?!

And as you apparently don't read well, I'll say again, I don't give a damn what you carry or how many rounds are in it. Just don't tell me a usual armed defense is going to need a high cap gun when you sure can't prove it by the links you posted.

I guess I'll leave you guys to fantasy land where every defensive shoot requires scads of ammo and only the uber trained tacticool sorts prevail.

It remind me of the video I recently watched where the "tacitcal expert" claimed that he would never recommend a Browning Hi-Power because it didn't hold as much ammo as a Glock 17.

Come on, if 13+1 isn't enough for you, why do you think 17+1 is really that much better in the real world? o_O
 
The school of thought that 5 or 6 is enough makes me question how you train (if you actually train), and what preconceived notions you have about handgun stopping power. I train often and many of my drills involve putting 2 to 3 rounds on target at a time. How long would it take your 5 shot snub or 6 round pocket gun to run dry with multiple assailants and the inevitable misses that will occur? Do you think you are going to hit a bad guy with 1 perfectly placed round under stress and end the fight like on television? Do you think you are going to score a hit and the bad guy and his friends are going to just give up or run away?
 
If you really knew the story about Lance you'd know he had a jewelry store. That's a prime target for armed robbers doing a smash and grab.And it wasn't just two.
I believe Lance Thomas owned a store that sold and repaired watches.
 
To the OP--who seems to have run away from the hairball this has become--it depends.
In an earlier time, when I went among bad people I had 210 rounds, and another rifleman, a grenadier, and a SAW gunner and felt as comfortable as full rattle would allow. There have been times since where the nape hairs get that twitch and I felt like an entire squad might not be enough reassurance. Other times when all I needs were my wits about me.

Had an "ahem" moment just a few days ago, driving over to the folk's house for xmas eve. Saw a car on the side of the highway in the dark. Had a pang that poor person needed help. Except I was "dressed" to be at my folk's house, not for being a Good Samaritan in a deep urban setting at night, alone. Was not a pleasant feeling--neither the one of not helping, nor of being ill-prepared to do so.
 
If you really knew the story about Lance you'd know he had a jewelry store. That's a prime target for armed robbers doing a smash and grab.And it wasn't just two.
I really know the story about Lance and his watch store. If you really knew the story, you would know that the first shootout really was just two attackers vs. Lance--that was also the case in the third and fourth shootouts. In the second shootout there were 5 attackers.

Yes, jewelry/watch stores are prime targets which speaks to the CHANCES of being attacked, but this thread is about how many rounds are required to deal with an attack. There's no reason why it should take more bullets to deal with two attackers if you're in a watch store vs. on your way to buy groceries and therefore there's no reason why Lance shouldn't count--except that his real-world experiences don't support your argument.
I guess I'll leave you guys to fantasy land where every defensive shoot requires scads of ammo and only the uber trained tacticool sorts prevail.
This is what is known as a strawman. It is when a person in a debate creates a false position to attack so that they can more easily win the argument. Nobody has said that EVERY defensive shoot requires scads of ammo. Many (most, in fact) self-defense gun uses don't even require a single shot to be fired. And people who aren't tactical at all prevail every day because guns are fairly simple to use and have a strong deterrent effect even when not wielded by a skilled defender.

But that's not the same thing as saying that one never needs more than 5 or 6 rounds to resolve a violent attack. Sometimes more rounds are required and a number of examples have been provided on this thread.
 
Most shots fired in anger miss. I was surprised to learn just how consistent the pattern is. Various explanations have been put forth. One is the fright factor inherent in bullets traveling the wrong way, toward you not away. Some people have supposed, in addition, that most of us have a deep-seated subconscious objection to shooting someone, thus a built-in tendency to miss. But whatever the cause, a whole lot of bullets get launched that do not hit their human targets. http://shootery.blogspot.com/2013/01/why-private-citizens-really-do-need.html


True. I'd surmise that the reason is that the first time is awkward... for many things! The first time you actually shoot in self-defense, the rush of adrenaline and all makes your limbs move a bit on their own, and overtaking your decision process. You tend to shoot early, before being on target, or without proper coordination. Afterwards you can debrief yourself, and hopefully the next time you do better. Until perhaps you can keep your cool and master the situation. Of course, this habituation does not happen in the vast majority of armed encounters for ordinary citizens... So yes, more shots than needed are fired, and they don't all find their mark.

CapnMac, I did not run, I'm in the boondocks and could just give a look once in a while... :) This said, it's interesting to see all the various opinions and arguments in this thread, drawn from different experiences or expectations...

I do not advocate a minimalist approach to self-defense. Rather, a proper assessment of the realistic threat anyone faces in his own circumstances, which can vary depending on time and location.

I think that for many, the threat does not necessitate three dozens rounds to sort out things, and that one would be served just as well with a single-stack 8 to 10 rounder than with a bulkier and heavier tool. Matters of personal preferences, but "whatever the rest of the pack does, especially on Youtube" should not be part of the decision process when selecting a gun for carry.

In Westgate Mall scenarii, 18 rounds are little and you'd wish you had a carbine or rifle with 3-4 magazines. I know the Westgate, shopped and had snacks there with my family. I also spend time almost every day in similar locations, which are marked targets for a variety of miscreants ready to die in order to kill you. Some of those locations have actually been bombed already... I still go there because we're not about to allow bastards to keep us from living our lives. Still, my favor goes to a 9-10 rounds single stack, with a couple of reloads if going to potential "high risk" areas.

Around home or in the street, that same gun, even without reload. Plain vanilla robbers strongly object to being shot at, and tend to decamp in a hurry when this happens - at least our local breed.

When in the bush in locations where the threat is armed bands of cattle raiders and various semi-rebel/bandits, who use mostly AKs (or G3s if they come from the Kenyan side) we rarely move in groups less than six strong, and our usual complement is around 10 men, 10-12 rifles - a couple of bolt actions and mainly AKs. A GPMG when the weather forecast is cloudy with possible showers. Again, carrying for the assessed threat...

As an aside, someone mentioned that animals do not present a threat unless they are in immediate proximity. Well, yes, but... When you chase a wounded animal in long grass or thick bush, often the distance of engagement is counted in paces. Things wait until you almost step on them, then jump on you from nowhere, with just a rustling of grass or branches to give you a warning. When you actually see the incoming train, it can be as close as one or two rifle lengths. And people in these circumstances still manage to pull aimed brain shots - not MOA aimed, but in-the-ball aimed. That's why I say that aimed CNS shots are better than multiple center-of-mass shots - and possible. Even a straight-through heart shot can leave an assailant with enough reserves to pump a full magazine into you.
 
Most people that I have come to know do not practice enough with a pistol to gain what I call a "second nature proficiency with a sidearm''. That being said there is a lack of understanding about proficiency when when your life is on the line. If you practice with a pistol to the point where shooting becomes second nature then rest easy with some confidence that a single stack magazine should do.
 
I've yet to read anyone who survived a gunfight complain about carrying all that extra ammo and then not needing it. :)


Larry
 
The school of thought that 5 or 6 is enough makes me question how you train (if you actually train), and what preconceived notions you have about handgun stopping power. I train often and many of my drills involve putting 2 to 3 rounds on target at a time. How long would it take your 5 shot snub or 6 round pocket gun to run dry with multiple assailants and the inevitable misses that will occur? Do you think you are going to hit a bad guy with 1 perfectly placed round under stress and end the fight like on television? Do you think you are going to score a hit and the bad guy and his friends are going to just give up or run away?

Posts with questions like yours are why I started tracking and looking at self defense shootings. I was curious as to whether what so many on the gun boards claim (carry lots of ammo, lots of misses, need lots of training) matches up to reality. I was surprised to find that it really doesn't, at least not here in America.

How many rounds is enough? I'm having a hard time finding a reason to worry with somewhere between six and ten. And yes, usually one hit and the bad guy and his friend run away---there were examples of that in my reply to Brownings video post.
 
I really know the story about Lance and his watch store. If you really knew the story, you would know that the first shootout really was just two attackers vs. Lance--that was also the case in the third and fourth shootouts. In the second shootout there were 5 attackers.

Yes, jewelry/watch stores are prime targets which speaks to the CHANCES of being attacked, but this thread is about how many rounds are required to deal with an attack. There's no reason why it should take more bullets to deal with two attackers if you're in a watch store vs. on your way to buy groceries and therefore there's no reason why Lance shouldn't count--except that his real-world experiences don't support your argument.This is what is known as a strawman. It is when a person in a debate creates a false position to attack so that they can more easily win the argument. Nobody has said that EVERY defensive shoot requires scads of ammo. Many (most, in fact) self-defense gun uses don't even require a single shot to be fired. And people who aren't tactical at all prevail every day because guns are fairly simple to use and have a strong deterrent effect even when not wielded by a skilled defender.

But that's not the same thing as saying that one never needs more than 5 or 6 rounds to resolve a violent attack. Sometimes more rounds are required and a number of examples have been provided on this thread.

Ok, here's a summary of Lances shootings so you can get your facts straight.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/117273824

The facts are that it was a gang targeting a number of stores in that area, and they had already killed other shop owners. The first shootout was two BG, Lance had a revolver, one BG hit the other ran. The second time was four BGs, two very well armed because of the first shootout,two on lookout. Thats a lot more preparation than the garden variety thugs that confront most carriers. Third time, one BG, dead BG. Fourth time, two bad guys out for revenge, both killed.

So tell me, do you have a gang that you've pissed off? Do you only carry to one location? Are you targeted for revenge? Because if you can't yes to these questions then there's a big difference between you and Lance.

And it's not a strawman, it's sarcasm.
 
I've yet to read anyone who survived a gunfight complain about carrying all that extra ammo and then not needing it. :)


Larry
But that's not the point!! Following your logic, I'd be carrying a Glock with four or five 33 round mags and an AR15 with another 7 or 8 mags---because you can never have enough ammo.
 
Most people that I have come to know do not practice enough with a pistol to gain what I call a "second nature proficiency with a sidearm''. That being said there is a lack of understanding about proficiency when when your life is on the line. If you practice with a pistol to the point where shooting becomes second nature then rest easy with some confidence that a single stack magazine should do.

What surprised me is that quite a few successful shootings were by persons who weren't very accomplished at all. They knew the basics but rarely shot the gun.
 
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