"Antique Firearms"

Status
Not open for further replies.
W

War Squirrel

Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Messages
211
So it is my understanding that certain weapons that meet the "antique firearms" definition in the NFA are exempt from regulation, if they utilize one of the categories of primitive ignition systems, no fixed cartridges, and were manufactured before 1898 or a replica thereof. This is why we can own bronze and iron cannons, black powder mortars, .60 cal flintlocks and such, regardless of bore diameter, etc.

So how does this affect modern muzzleloaders which are not replicas of anything, such as a Thompson Center .54 caliber inline muzzleloader?

Or, what if someone built something unquestionably modern, say, a dead-nuts replica of a M777 howitzer, but designed for muzzleloading and an antique ignition system?
 
The definition of "antique" for Title II purposes (NFA) is different from the definition of "antique" for Title I purposes. This can be a trap for the unwary. (I don't have time right now to research and explain the difference.)
 
AlexanderA said:
The definition of "antique" for Title II purposes (NFA) is different from the definition of "antique" for Title I purposes. This can be a trap for the unwary. (I don't have time right now to research and explain the difference.)
Click to expand...

If a firearm does not use fixed ammunition (that is available through regular commercial channels) and has a match lock, wheel lock, flint lock or percussion ignition system it is an antique regardless of when it was made. If it fires fixed ammunition (that is available through regular commercial channels) and was made in 1898 or earlier it is an antique unless it meets the definition of an NFA weapon. 1898 and earlier firearms that fire fixed ammunition can not be made into NFA weapons without a tax stamp. The curios and relics lists several firearms that are exempt from the NFA because they were originally made in a configuration that would violate the NFA.

SC45-70
 
Okay excellent, thank you.

Is "fixed ammunition" further defined? Or is there case law supporting it?
 
War Squirrel said:
Okay excellent, thank you.

Is "fixed ammunition" further defined? Or is there case law supporting it?
Click to expand...

Title 27 chapter II subchapter B part 478 subpart B-definitions
Ammunition. Ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm other than an antique firearm. The term shall not include(a) any shotgun shot or pellet not for use as a single complete projectile load for one shotgun hull or casing, nor (b) any unloaded, non-metallic shotgun hull or casing not having a primer.

That is the BATFE definition of ammunition.

SC45-70
 
Last edited:
I work in law enforcement and just dealt with this recently. The above posts are correct. All muzzleloaders are considered antique firearms. We recently had a felon shoot another felon with a muzzleloader and kill him and he was not charged with having the muzzleloader. I also recently spoke with the local game warden who deals with this issue all the time and he verified that felons can possess modern muzzleloaders. He also stated that shotgun primers were ok as a form of ignition.
 
We recently had a felon shoot another felon with a muzzleloader and kill him and he was not charged with having the muzzleloader.
Click to expand...

So how is the tool used relavent? Felon in possession of a firearm is more of a problem than murder? Is the punishment for murder so diluted these days that you need to look for "extra" charges to keep a felon off the streets?

If felon A killed felon B in self defense inside is own home I'd be OK with it even if he'd used a firearm.
 
Some states will classify a muzzle loader as "antique" as far as possession until it's loaded, at that point it becomes a firearm.
 
In Wisconsin a felon can't even have a bullet in his possession. No bp, no casings, no primers, certainly no muzzle loaders. While in Minnesota I believe all that you have to do is not have a scope and the muzzleloader must have an external hammer.
I wanted to get an old Mauser or mosin and make an SBR "antique", I found out fast that's a no-no without a tax stamp so I abandoned ship on that idea, too many regulations for something that is supposed to be an unalienable right.
 
This thread is getting confusing, because the original question related to the definition of an "antique" for NFA purposes.

Here is the definition, from the official ATF web site:

"For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Antique Firearms” means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade."
​
For more, including examples, go here:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...rms-national-firearms-act-definitions-antique

The material highlighted in italics, in the quote above, is the difference between the Title I definition and the Title II definition. That means, for example, that a rifle in a standard cartridge caliber, that was manufactured before 1899, is an antique, and unregulated, if it is in its original configuration. But if you chop it, so that the barrel is less than 16" long, it becomes a regulated SBR. You have to file a Form 1, and pay a $200 tax, before doing this.

Cartridge machine guns in standard calibers are regulated NFA weapons, no matter when they were made. But a Gatling gun is not a "machine gun," because it does not fire more than one shot "by a single function of the firing device." (The crank is considered to fire a series of single shots, unless you attach an electric motor to the crank.) An original Gatling gun actually made before 1899 is an antique, but any Gatling gun actually made after that date (including modern replicas) is a Title I weapon.
 
wally said:
So how is the tool used relavent? Felon in possession of a firearm is more of a problem than murder? Is the punishment for murder so diluted these days that you need to look for "extra" charges to keep a felon off the streets?

If felon A killed felon B in self defense inside is own home I'd be OK with it even if he'd used a firearm.
Click to expand...
I took his comments as a statement of fact and not a value judgement.

Mike
 
Dog Soldier said:
In Arizona and other open carry states you may carry a loaded B/P revolver. However if it is concealed you need a CCW.

http://blackpowdermuzzleloading.com/can-a-felon-own-a-muzzleloader/
Click to expand...
1. The topic of this thread is whether an antique is a "firearm" under either Title I or Title II (or state analogues), not whether it is a "weapon". A knife is a weapon and a concealed knife is a "concealed weapon". Totally independent question.

2. Arizona is "constitutional" permitless concealed carry state and has been for almost 7 years. We were 3rd after Vermont and Alaska.

Mike

PS. That article has so many inaccuracies and contradictions about possession that it would be exhausting to list them all. It is also wrong on making your own firearms:
The fact that black powder muzzleloading rifles and pistols are not considered firearms means that they can avoid many state and federal regulations. Thus if your grandpa has a woodworking shop and his hobby is crafting beautiful hand made flintlock rifles, he can do so without needing to have a federal firearms license.
Click to expand...
Grandpa, or you or I for that matter can make a modern centerfire rifle or handgun without a Federal Firearms License. That statement is just nonsense.
 
Last edited:
Ryanxia said:
While I don't have sources to back it up, I remember looking into the question of if it would be legal for me to short barrel a muzzle loader (replica) rifle or muzzle loader shotgun and that was OK. I had even found Cabella's sells short barrel muzzle loading shotguns.
Click to expand...
Sure. Replica muzzle loaders are "antiques" and it doesn't matter what the barrel length is. The problem arises with pre-1899 cartridge guns (those actually made before 1899), which are normally "antiques" but are not "antiques" if they have NFA characteristics such as being short-barreled or being fully automatic. (But they are "antiques" if their cartridges are "not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.") Confused yet?
 
I was adding my 2 cents in regards to the OP's question about muzzle loaders. I know cartridge firing firearms are different.
 
The Feds drove gunsmith John Bivens out of the business by charging him federal excise tax even though he built muzzleloaders, mostly flintlocks. Back taxes on everything he had ever sold. There were other muzzleloader builders hit with back taxes in the thousands of dollars.
 
Very good information Jim. Those of us who have fought the gun grabbers for a long time no the rules of law are only words. The Left well bend these laws to fit their needs. I wish quoting legal verbiage was enough to stop these attacks.:thumbdown:
 
Dog Soldier said:
Sorry Mike, you may correct me. I am not like you, I am not a legal expert. Sorry for the mistake. :(
Click to expand...
I am lot a legal expert either, at least no more than gun enthusiasts, esp. NFA enthusiasts are forced to be. For example, as someone who carries concealed in AZ, I am expected to be familiar with AZ law.

For me correcting incorrect legal information is important but not at all personal.

Mike
 
Arizona_Mike said:
For me correcting incorrect legal information is important but not at all personal.
Click to expand...

That's the key right there, we need to make sure the correct information is what people are getting, not just the ones making threads but the ones doing searches for it down the road. I've corrected several people in the past and I've been corrected in the past too, while it is embarrassing it is important to know we have the right information especially if we give it out to others and they take our word for it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

L
  • Locked
Are 'inline' muzzle loaders subject to the US NFA?
Replies
6
Views
640
LAR-15
L
K
  • Locked
Antique full auto reproduction legality?
2
Replies
36
Views
2K
Shadow 7D
S
L
  • Locked
NC sure has a weird definition of 'antique firearm'
Replies
11
Views
1K
LAR-15
L
G
  • Locked
Antique Firearms Definitions
Replies
11
Views
539
Sam1911
S
Dain Bramage
  • Locked
Black Powder Cannon as Destructive Device
Replies
22
Views
2K
Frank Ettin
Frank Ettin
Back
Top