New Alliant Sport Pistol

Wreck-n-Crew · Jan 20, 2017

It's easy to forget (or maybe I often do) that some people are fans of brands and the subject is often sensitive. I guess it is because I am looking at a new product from a different view such as "wow it does this" "and no one's done that yet" or "cool that is what I was missing in X type product". However that's what good discussions on subject matter bring out, differing views and that too can be a positive thing. Because of the way I look at new products it might be no shock to someone else that I have different brands sitting on my bench.

From one perspective that has something to do with marketing. From another its what I get from that product that makes me use it exclusively. Yet being flexible I have changed some products to better fill a need based on their performance and some are discovered due to a supply shortage. In the end I find something that fits and for me that's what matters.

The same can be said for competition being beneficial to the consumer as new or improved products often come from that same competition. Price is often another benefit from competition. Lemons do make lemonade in the right hands and if you like juice there is always someone making it differently.

thomas15 · Jan 20, 2017

Wreck-n-Crew said:
It's easy to forget (or maybe I often do) that some people are fans of brands and the subject is often sensitive. I guess it is because I am looking at a new product from a different view such as "wow it does this" "and no one's done that yet" or "cool that is what I was missing in X type product".

Yes, agree. Look at just exactly what we know about this product. It's a smokeless pistol powder, we have some charge notes and it's claimed to be "optimized" for coated bullets whatever benefit that might bring us. That's all we know, period. Oh, except it will be months before it hits the shelves. And yet some here are all whipped up in a frenzy as if there isn't any other option for them to send their bullets downrange. Is this a ball or flake powder, single or double base, what is it's relative burn rate, what existing powder is it designed to compete with?

Look objectively at the availability of Alliant's pistol/shotgun canister powder line as of today. If you hunt around you can find some Clay Dot, Bullseye and Unique. It's there but not really. American Select is very difficult to locate. BE86 and Power Pistol is perhaps the easiest to locate. Notice that I didn't say any of these are impossible to find but someone who thinks they are the self-appointed defender of Vista Outdoors will shortly post a link to an online source for a all of these powders. Alliant has been arguably the slowest to recover from the great gunpowder shortage of '13. Alliant needs to find more reliable sources for it's canister products and this is the most likely reason for the advent of Sport Pistol. No one that I'm aware of is protesting the lack of a powder designed special for coated bullets.

Jim Watson · Jan 20, 2017

I think it is just ducky to have a gunpowder meant for use with coated bullets. But I doubt my loads with HP38 and Bullseye are doing much damage to the HiTek coating now so common in the business. I don't get leading and I don't even get the smell that came off some of the earlier coatings when shot.

So what is Alliant gaining by adding another powder to their already hard to get lineup?
Manufacturing ease or reduced environmental load is my bet.

During Obama Panic II/Hillary Panic Prelim there were rumors that Win 231/HP38 was so scarce because it was being discontinued. We were told by someone at Hodgdon that such a popular powder would not be discontinued but that it might be deemphasized in favor of newer grades which are manufactured by a process that generates less waste.

So I am looking at Alliant's bottom line, too.

Alternate Universe. They say "Made in USA." The only smokeless powder mills I know of in the US are Alliant/Radford and Gendye/Winchester/St Marks. Whoever gets the first look at the physical form of Sport Pistol should report whether it is Ball or flake. Alliant might be in cahoots with their nominal competitor.

Havok7416 · Jan 20, 2017

Jim Watson said:
I think it is just ducky to have a gunpowder meant for use with coated bullets. But I doubt my loads with HP38 and Bullseye are doing much damage to the HiTek coating now so common in the business. I don't get leading and I don't even get the smell that came off some of the earlier coatings when shot.

So what is Alliant gaining by adding another powder to their already hard to get lineup?
Manufacturing ease or reduced environmental load is my bet.

During Obama Panic II/Hillary Panic Prelim there were rumors that Win 231/HP38 was so scarce because it was being discontinued. We were told by someone at Hodgdon that such a popular powder would not be discontinued but that it might be deemphasized in favor of newer grades which are manufactured by a process that generates less waste.

So I am looking at Alliant's bottom line, too.

Alternate Universe. They say "Made in USA." The only smokeless powder mills I know of in the US are Alliant/Radford and Gendye/Winchester/St Marks. Whoever gets the first look at the physical form of Sport Pistol should report whether it is Ball or flake. Alliant might be in cahoots with their nominal competitor.

Jim, all good points which I've been mulling over myself. I don't think anyone is suggesting a particular powder damages the coating (not during firing anyway). For me, the fact that a manufacturer would publicly mention coated bullets is a big step forward. Every now and again someone mentions the supposed.damaging effects of coated bullets. Alliant must have done testing to get the numbers they posted. Hopefully other manufacturers will follow suit.

Jim Watson · Jan 20, 2017

I recall that Federal is now selling factory loads "Syntech" with coated bullets. I wonder what powder THEY are using.

Walkalong · Jan 20, 2017

I doubt any but the hottest of powders do any damage worth worrying about when it comes to a coated base.

I do like another option in that burn rate range and it may prove to be a great option for many. Dunno, but I'll certainly give some a try.

Havok7416 · Jan 20, 2017

The damage from the powder in this context comes from the powder softening or "eating" the coating when the cartridge sits in storage for a period of time. This has been proven by several forum members, primarily using Bullseye.

The damage from the coating itself to the barrel (due to supposed metal particles in the coating) has been mentioned by others in the past. To my knowledge there has been no appreciable effect measured from this.

Jim Watson · Jan 20, 2017

Ah, so, it is made to avoid attacking the bullet coating while in storage. Wonder if it avoids rotting the cheap acrylic hoppers of many powder measures.
Hang on, I will be back shortly after pulling a couple of bullets.

ETA: I pulled a BBI with HiTek coating from a Bullseye load that had been on the shelf for several months. The coating on the base of the bullet was the same color and texture as on the nose. So I do not see an incompatibility there.

I called up the product information sheet. Says "Made in the USA For Alliant Powder." (Emphasis added. See "Alternate Universe" in my prior post.)

Rule3 · Jan 20, 2017

Havok7416 said:
The damage from the powder in this context comes from the powder softening or "eating" the coating when the cartridge sits in storage for a period of time. This has been proven by several forum members, primarily using Bullseye.

The damage from the coating itself to the barrel (due to supposed metal particles in the coating) has been mentioned by others in the past. To my knowledge there has been no appreciable effect measured from this.

Have you read the report on the interweb that barrel wear is cause by shooting diamond particles?

Yes, over time the carbon (think coal) builds up and becomes so hard that it is the hardness of diamonds. Now we know how hard those are.

So shooting a lot, is like sand blasting with diamond dust particles.

Now combined with these polymer coatings who knows what will happen??

I swear, I did not make this up, it's out there!

Walkalong · Jan 20, 2017

Havok7416 said:
he damage from the powder in this context comes from the powder softening or "eating" the coating when the cartridge sits in storage for a period of time. This has been proven by several forum members, primarily using Bullseye.

That makes sense, as the high nitro content of Bullseye eats powder reservoirs as well. I am betting the new powder is low nitro content, and may have additives to reduce heat. That is one reason I like single base powders. I am not so enamored with saving a few grains of powder per cartridge as some people are. ("I can get the same FPS with less powder.") We get that with adding energy (Nitro) to the mix.

LiveLife · Jan 20, 2017

Jim Watson said:
I recall that Federal is now selling factory loads "Syntech" with coated bullets. I wonder what powder THEY are using.

Federal, Speer, CCI, Blazer and Alliant etc. used to be part of ATK that became Vista Outdoor.

Chances are, Federal uses BE-86 for some of their factory loads or proprietary powder not available in retail canister bottles. Federal/Speer/CCI/Blazer could be using Sport Pistol also, especially for "Syntech" ammunition - https://www.federalpremium.com/ammu...merican-eagle-syntech/american-eagle-syntech/

• Polymer-encapsulated Syntech® bullet prevents metal-on-metal contact in the bore, eliminating copper and lead fouling, while extending barrel life
• Exclusive lead-free primer formulation provides the most reliable, consistent ignition
• Clean-burning propellants minimize residue and fouling
• Significantly reduces the required frequency of cleaning
• Absence of a copper jacket minimizes splash-back on steel targets
• Less perceived recoil

Havok7416 · Jan 20, 2017

Jim Watson said:
Ah, so, it is made to avoid attacking the bullet coating while in storage. Wonder if it avoids rotting the cheap acrylic hoppers of many powder measures.
Hang on, I will be back shortly after pulling a couple of bullets.

ETA: I pulled a BBI with HiTek coating from a Bullseye load that had been on the shelf for several months. The coating on the base of the bullet was the same color and texture as on the nose. So I do not see an incompatibility there.

I called up the product information sheet. Says "Made in the USA For Alliant Powder." (Emphasis added. See "Alternate Universe" in my prior post.)

Jim,

I recall seeing a thread on here awhile back where a guy pulled some bullets after a year and discovered softening of the powder coat. It's entirely possible Hi-Tek has some kind of additive or perhaps it was the way/length of time you stored your ammo. All I know is the problem has been reported in the past. How much the softening effects things I do not know. I personally have some coated ammo that has been sitting on the shelf for over a year now and will likely be sitting for some time to come. I do not anticipate any issues with that ammo, but if I run into problems, you can bet I'll post my results in this forum for sure.

Rule3 said:
Have you read the report on the interweb that barrel wear is cause by shooting diamond particles?

Yes, over time the carbon (think coal) builds up and becomes so hard that it is the hardness of diamonds. Now we know how hard those are.

So shooting a lot, is like sand blasting with diamond dust particles.

Now combined with these polymer coatings who knows what will happen??

I swear, I did not make this up, it's out there!

Yes I read that report. By the same guy who found Bigfoot if I recall correctly.

Rule3 · Jan 20, 2017

Havok7416 said:
Jim,

I recall seeing a thread on here awhile back where a guy pulled some bullets after a year and discovered softening of the powder coat. It's entirely possible Hi-Tek has some kind of additive or perhaps it was the way/length of time you stored your ammo. All I know is the problem has been reported in the past. How much the softening effects things I do not know. I personally have some coated ammo that has been sitting on the shelf for over a year now and will likely be sitting for some time to come. I do not anticipate any issues with that ammo, but if I run into problems, you can bet I'll post my results in this forum for sure.

Yes I read that report. By the same guy who found Bigfoot if I recall correctly.

LOL,!! No really, it even had pictures that were not blurry. It was really out there and not some fly my night poster , I will try to find it.

Regardless I still think it is BS.

Havok7416 · Jan 20, 2017

I don't see any possible way you can make a diamond in a gun barrel no matter how long you shoot through it.

thomas15 · Jan 20, 2017

bds said:
Chances are, Federal uses BE-86 for some of their factory loads or proprietary powder not available in retail canister bottles. Federal/Speer/CCI/Blazer could be using Sport Pistol also, especially for "Syntech" ammunition

I really don't think they use canister powders in their commercial ammo. I have an friend that used to work for a mid-sized ammo maker, big enough that all here would know the name, and they don't use canister powders.

Don't get me wrong I hope this powder is fantastic and available. But my contention that this is all marketing is I believe a valid one.

rsrocket1 · Jan 20, 2017

I did (am still running) a test with different powders sitting against powder coated bullets. It looks like the amount of "softening" or degradation of the powder coat is directly related to the amount of nitroglycerin in the powder. Most of the powders coming onto the market lately have tried to advertise "clean burning" because that's what some shooters "demand". In most cases, the way to get this is to up the NG content.
I started this last in the fall of 2015. That reminds me, I need to update with the "1 year after test"

Here's what they looked like after 50 days of sitting nose down with the powder sitting on the bullet bases:

Jim Watson · Jan 20, 2017

Powder coated, you say? What about Hi Tek and others made for bullets?

Walkalong · Jan 20, 2017

rsrocket1 said:
Most of the powders coming onto the market lately have tried to advertise "clean burning" because that's what some shooters "demand". In most cases, the way to get this is to up the NG content.

Single base Vihtavuori powders are extremely clean burning, obviously with zero nitro content. Not saying that can't help, dunno, but it can be done without it. What the source of the nitrocellulose is makes a huge difference.

Havok7416 · Jan 20, 2017

Jim Watson said:
Powder coated, you say? What about Hi Tek and others made for bullets?

We will just have to test I guess!

LiveLife · Jan 20, 2017

thomas15 said:
I really don't think they use canister powders in their commercial ammo. I have an friend that used to work for a mid-sized ammo maker, big enough that all here would know the name, and they don't use canister powders.

Paul/Alliant Reloading who works for Vista Outdoor posted previously when BE-86 was released that BE-86 has been used by various ammunition manufacturers to power factory ammunition, including premium JHP ammunition for decades - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/be-86.760289/page-7#post-9652697

Alliant Reloading said:
BE-86 ... Professional ballisticians have utilized this powder for almost 30 years, and we have produced millions of pounds of it since.

We have one large ammo manufacturer, that shall remain nameless, that uses BE-86 in their Gold Medal Match 45Auto 185 gr ... We had one large mfg that was using BE-86 in a 125 gr JHP duty load, and that surprised me, but the engineer for that product said he wanted 1350 ft/sec, accuracy and low sd's, and BE-86 was best for that.

Wreck-n-Crew · Jan 20, 2017

Jim Watson said:
Powder coated, you say? What about Hi Tek and others made for bullets?

Good question. I see the biggest problem with Hi-Tek is it is a brand and whether or not it is a form of powder coat remains a mystery to me. I for one would like to know for certain.

What I do know is that Powder coat can be applied the same way as Hi-Tek but the process is much longer and messier (just like Hi-Tek) than Tumbling a good powder coat and baking once vs 2 times. I did it using the HF black which would not tumble for me.

Most people who coat their own powder coat and most who buy are Hi-Tek coated. I figure its possible that bullet casting companies get some type of warranty/guarantee that Hi-tek provides and why those companies go with what's easier and maybe safer from a business perspective.

I once went on a hunt among powder coat companies/suppliers to find out if they had a better powder coat (found a few but that came later) than Harbor Freight because some of their colors would not build enough static in the tumble process to get a good coating. Red was best. During that hunt I Had a few who asked me (because they did not know about powder coated bullets but knew powder coat) what kind of powder coat I needed and it turns out that there are many different kinds using different polymers and synthetics as well as blends that were used for different applications. That was a whole lot more than what I asked for. The idea that I had to research the different kinds of Powder coats to find out which one would work in bullets. Truth is they all may have and maybe some with varying degrees of success. My time was more important and stuck with what I knew worked until coated bullets became more popular and more people guinea pigged the details and found better powder coats.

LiveLife · Jan 20, 2017

thomas15 said:
I really don't think they use canister powders in their commercial ammo. I have an friend that used to work for a mid-sized ammo maker, big enough that all here would know the name, and they don't use canister powders.

And this - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...hat-is-it-good-for.759862/page-2#post-9601322

Alliant Reloading said:
The US Army still utilizes the M118LR round, as we produce that round in pretty good quantity for them at the Lake City plant. I did verify that it is still being produced with Reloder(R) 15.

The Mk 316 mod 0 round is produced by Federal at our Anoka facility for Crane. The Mk 316 mod 0 is also a great round developed by SOCOM, and uses IMR 4064 propellant.

JimKirk · Jan 20, 2017

Here's a quote from Paul about using AR-Comp in factory loads....

[/
JimKirk,
AR-Comp(TM) is between Reloder 10x and Reloder 15, on the Reloder 15 side, so it is perfect for all bullet weights 50gr and up in 223Rem. It is also awesome in 308Win and any other applications that a 4895 burnspeed product would be used in. So, for the guys pining for the discontinued Reloder 12, this would be worth a look.
AR-Comp was the first of our new temp stable line that I mentioned earlier in this thread. We use it in a bunch of ammo at our Federal factory, and it is gaining in popularity with handloaders. It is one of our master ballistician's favorite powders, as he routinely delivers 10rd sd's of 3 or 4 with it. Dave actually gets upset if he can't get the sd down below 7, and starts blaming the components (and he is probably correct).
Shoot well,
Paul]

vaalpens · Jan 20, 2017

Alliant Reloading said:
Another application that BE-86 has worked really well is 38Spl+P. Medium power 357Mag is another, but you have figured that already. We had one large mfg that was using BE-86 in a 125grJHP duty load, and that surprised me, but the engineer for that product said he wanted 1350ft/sec, accuracy and low sd's, and BE-86 was best for that.

bds, thanks for quoting the Alliant/Paul post. I wonder if the "125gr duty load" is for 357sig or 357magmum. The Alliant load data lists the following 357sig load:

357 Sig., 125 gr JHP, Federal, 1.135", 4" barrel, Fed 100, BE-86, 8.2gr, 1,388fps

I should probably increase my BE-86 SD load to around 1350fps and see what accuracy and ES/SD numbers I get. Interesting.

LiveLife · Jan 27, 2017

Powder Valley showing "Alliant Sport Pistol" listed at $129 for 8 lbs (currently out of stock) - https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/

New Alliant Sport Pistol

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