Win Model 70 or Remington Sendero

i own both a win and rem long range hunting rifles with 26 " barrels in 300mag and 7mm and a ruger #1 with a 26"barrel in 300 win mag, i favor the 7mm mag, but both would be ok. remington offers more rifles with longer and heavier barrels than winchester right now. handle both rifles and pick what fits you best. good luck. eastbank.

Sky Dog said:

Looking for a for a long range rifle...Probably .300 Win Mag. I've narrowed it down to these two, but I'm open for suggestions. Your thoughts?

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Win model 70 .300/7rem Mag, but if you REALLY want the best b.c. in town, grab a savage or Montana rifle chambered in 6.5-284 norma or find a .264 win Mag or the new 26 nosler if the Norma cartridge doesn't get you enough speed. The 6.5 will outshoot the other two with ballistic coefficient and sectional density with less recoil.

Whatcha gonna shoot it at?

One of the modern rimless bottleneck cartridges producing 300 Win Mag velocities will be easier to load accurate ammo for. 300 SAUM Winchester.

The Winchester action has a better safety, is more reliable, easier to maintain and operate, plus over twice as stiff than the Remington.

Some good points brought up so far. I would add the following:
- Winchester just has the better action - stiffer, better extraction, better ejection on the bench, better safety, better trigger. The Remington trigger issues are very off-putting.
- I think the HS precision stock (Sendero) and Bell & Carlson (M70 Extreme Weather SS) are pretty comparable
- In general Winchester has much better beading jobs (I'd say book having to re-bed the Remington)
- I've never followed the logic of the Sendero. Heavy barrels aren't more accurate, they're more heat tolerant during long shot strings. Hunting does not involve long shot strings.
- If you want to run a sling + bipod, the Winchester will need another sling stud. No big deal but worth noting
- In general barrels from Remington and Winchester are comparable, but the Remington barrels off the M24 tooling (advertised as '5R') seem to have an edge. The Sendero doesn't look like it uses those, but I'm not 100% sure.
- Given a choice, at long range I would MUCH rather be in a 7mm magnum than a .300 Magnum. Better performance plus less recoil plus addressing the same game makes it a no brainer. Since the 7mm Remington Mag is the only popular 7mm magnum option, that would be my caliber of choice. In theory 7WSM or 7SAUM might be nice, but they're dead calibers.

Taking all the above into account, a Winchester M70 Extreme Weather SS in 7mm mag seems like a very good choice.

I have a Sendero in 300 win mag and it is far and away my most favorite rifle I own. The heavy barrel is fantastic. The way I understood it, the heavier barrel doesn't vibrate as much during firing so there is less movement in follow up shots. I did replace the stock trigger with a Timney. It is a much better trigger and I love using it. It also alleviates any safety concerns I may have had. The Timney blocks the trigger instead of the sear.

As for the action, I use a little bit of tetra grease on the back of the lugs and a very light coat on the bolt raceway. It is silky smooth and runs like butter. Very effortless. I have had no issues of any kind with feeding or extraction.

I really love the HS precision stock. It has a texture to it that really enhances grip and the palm swell fits my hand perfectly. It also has a full length aluminum bedding block that tightens down very well. I bedded the barrel lug and that was more than enough to really hold it down to the stock. I don't know how much would be gained from a full bed job. The barrel was supposed to be free floating, but mine had a high spot towards the front. It sanded down quite easily and no, it was not supposed to be a pressure point. It was barely enough to stop a dollar bill from sliding in.

At 400 yards it shot factory ammo (Federal 180 gn soft point) into a 1/2 moa group. I was ecstatic with the results and am currently working my own hand loads. I had been waiting on match primers but they are just unavailable for some reason.

I use a Harris bipod and it allows for a sling to be attached to it, so if you do go with the model 70, that could possibly alleviate a concern. I have not owned a model 70 so I cannot say anything for or against it. But I can highly recommend the Sendero.

- I've never followed the logic of the Sendero. Heavy barrels aren't more accurate, they're more heat tolerant during long shot strings. Hunting does not involve long shot strings.

Heavy barrels are generally more accurate and precise than light barrels for several reasons. They take longer to heat up so maintain their accuracy longer. They also vibrate less (more rigid) than lighter barrels. Light barrels start losing their ability to shoot precisely and accurately after about 3 shots due to heat. Vibration is always there so isn't a factor in a longer shot string. They are usually accurate enough for 3 shots to get the job done within a reasonable distance. A heavy barrel on a hunting rifle makes no sense to me. On that we agree.

I've seen equal match winning accuracy across all barrel weights and profiles.

Most commercial rifle's barrels are fit to receivers with faces out of square. Those do walk shots as they heat up. Both Winchester and Remington center fire match rifles with heavy, thick barrels did that. Square up their receiver faces and all barrels will shoot to point of aim fired once every 6 seconds for 10 shots in MOA at 200 and 300 yards.

How about 24 shots in 48 seconds into MOA at 600 yards with standard military type profiled 22" and 24" 308 Win barrels?

A Sendero is just a Rem M700 with an HS Precision stock vs the Bell and Carson stock on an M700 Long Range. MSRP on the Sendero is $1502. $879 on the Long Range.
There doesn't appear to be a factory, heavy barreled, M70 currently being made. You might find a used Coyote though. They had "medium heavy" barrels.
In any case, like Bart B says, what you plan on shooting at matters a bunch. So does what you consider 'long range' to be.

What are you going to shoot with it, and what do you consider long range? It makes a huge difference between shooting paper and elk. Some guys consider 400 yards long range, others start at 1000. I'm not certain any of the 300 magnums are as good an option as they used to be. How fast the bullet leaves the muzzle on a hunting rifle isn't nearly as important as how fast it impacts a game animal down range. In 2017 some of the better bullets fired from a 308 will impact at faster speeds at 700 yards and beyond than bullets fired from a 300 magnum 30 years ago. Todays 30-06 loads will equal 30 year old 300 mag speeds at 300 yards or farther. Of course those same bullets can also be loaded in 300 mag for improved performance as well. But there is something to be said for getting 308 recoil and 300 WM performance from just a few years back.

I'd pick Winchester over Remington regardless.

Hurricane said:

At 400 yards it shot factory ammo (Federal 180 gn soft point) into a 1/2 moa group. I was ecstatic with the results and am currently working my own hand loads. I had been waiting on match primers but they are just unavailable for some reason.

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Primer shortage huh? I don't like the sound of that. There can't be that many people building match grade ammo, can there? I wonder why there would be a shortage?

Sky Dog said:

Thanks for the input .Probably go with the M70. From what I gather, it's hard to beat. Seems like the Remington needs a Timney trigger to
"keep up." I think I know the answer to this....How does the Model 70 trigger compare with the Timney?

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The M700 Timney is crisper than the current MOA trigger. I prefer the M70 from a safety perspective.

There is a M70 MOA Timney replacement, but I've never shot it.

Jewel triggers may be best for Winchesters.

Bart B. said:

Jewel triggers may be best for Winchesters.

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Mr. Bart is correct about a Jewel trigger being better than a Timney for M-70s. In fact I have a Jewel trigger on one of my M-70 target rifles, photos of which I'll be posting on another thread in this site. However, if B&A offers their new Tacsport trigger for M-70s I expect it will be significantly better than the Jewel.

I have a Reminton 700 PSS in .300 Win Mag. Same profile heavy barrel as the Sendero. Advantage to that rifle is the detachable magazine and they were supposedly hand selected for accuracy before going to police only sales. The trigger is adjustable and one of the best I own, found no need to change it out.


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When super accurate rifles with detachable magazines were first used in serious competition, their users soon learned two things. Half the available magazines enabled great accuracy. But less than an eighth of them let the rifle shoot to the same place. Magazines used in rapid fire matches requiring a reload had to be a matched pair.

Are those police rifles so equipped? Otherwise, sight zero's across all can have over a half MOA spread.

Bart B, I can't talk about fast competition issues, but I have not noticed a POI shift between one magazine and another. However I don't tend to shoot rapid fire and don't work the bolt with a lot of force. Pretty consistent with my charging of the gun, that could make a difference I guess. I will mention that I only use two magazines, got 3 others still in their original packaging. While my rifle is capable of shooting farther, it's only had it legs stretched to 600 yards and had done fine there.


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Can you shoot with all magazines 10 shots in a minute twice in a row with 3 minutes between strings all 20 shots inside 2 inches at 200 yards or 3 at 300?

I have hundreds of rifles and some books on rifles.

The Remington 700 is a cheap to manufacture rifle. They polish the outside and put a good barrel on.

If all you do is shoot some groups at the range and then shoot a deer once a year. Get the Rem 700.

I personally LIKE a pre 64 Winchester, Ruger #1, or sporterized Mauser better, but all that ruggedness and quality on the inside is wasted on trips to the range and plugging a deer once a year.

so you like ruger,s too, you are a wise man. eastbank.

Bart B. said:

Can you shoot with all magazines 10 shots in a minute twice in a row with 3 minutes between strings all 20 shots inside 2 inches at 200 yards or 3 at 300?

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I don't have any interest at all in doing that, so I don't know if the rifle is capable of it or not. The rifle can do more than I ask of it, so I am fine with it.

It was a suggestion to the OP, maybe it would be all he needs also.

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Llama Bob said:

The M700 Timney is crisper than the current MOA trigger. I prefer the M70 from a safety perspective.

There is a M70 MOA Timney replacement, but I've never shot it.

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I replaced my M70 trigger with the Timney and like the feel of the Timney better. The stock trigger was not bad, but I could not adjust it below 2lbs without jeopardizing safety.

in the old days we used set triggers on the model 70 to get the pull below two pounds.

murf

Set triggers increase lock time. How long can you hold still after their first, second and third sear disengages? Each stage of set triggers has a sear engagement. .004 second is long enough with their factory trigger. Set triggers double or triple lock times over the factory single stage trigger. Pull straight back on the finger lever so the rifle doesn't jump sideways as it stops during lock time.

3.5 and 4.5 pound triggers are required for some center fire match rifles; these are single stage ones. People using them correctly will outperform those improperly using lighter pull ones.