Striker Fired vs 1911 - a dispassionate discussion?

Ed Ames said:

It is getting to the point where "g17g3" is becoming similar to "1911" but only barely.

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I would say that they already are. It joins the ranks of the Rem700, 10/22, AR, & 1911 where you can assemble a complete functional gun 100% out of aftermarket parts.

tarosean said:

LOL what year is it now?? I would call 106yrs + a pretty good stretch and its likely easier to name a company that doesn't make a 1911 clone than does.




Nope I own guns of every type.. The only guns I am emotionally attached to are ones that Ive inherited or had since I was knee high to a grasshopper (none of which are pistols). Obviously the same cannot be said for yourself.

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What cannot be said for me? That I do or don't have an emotional attachment to some firearms? Your point is not clear, just as your thinking isn't very clear if I'm honest.

To reiterate in case you missed it while raging about my observations of the very real disadvantages of the 1911 pistol, I own a 1911, I've owned several of them (only had 2 at any given time). I enjoy shooting them, as a point of fact I like well made 1911's a lot. I will probably buy more 1911's in the future. I just don't have any illusions about the 1911 being a viable service pistol in today's world if other more modern alternatives are readily available. If I were equipping an agency with side arms there is a 0% chance I would select a 1911. If I were going back into harms way as a US Marine I wouldn't want to be issued a 1911 if I had other choices.

I use Glocks as an example, and I don't even own a Glock. I don't like Glocks in fact. I shoot them well enough but don't care for them. Just because I don't personally like them as a tool doesn't mean I can't recognize that they work, they're cheap, they shoot well, they're easy to use, and super simple and inexpensive to maintain. I prefer SIG's and HK's for my modern service pistols, but can't fault Glocks for function, cost, or ease of use and maintenance.

tarosean said:

I would say that they already are. It joins the ranks of the Rem700, 10/22, AR, & 1911 where you can assemble a complete functional gun 100% out of aftermarket parts.

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Which means "generic g17" joins the 1911 as one of two conventional handgun categories that are at least technically comparable. Of course the 1911 is a far more diverse ecosystem at this point, but maybe in however many years they will hit a crossover point.

Of course you can always compare a particular make/model 1911 to any other make/model pistol, but it isn't really logically correct to compare "a 1911" (category) to a particular make/model (instance).

Dispassionate discussion? More like unnecessary.

It may have everything to do with laziness, I don't know; it's just that one has to be very dedicated and careful when using these guns, and most run of the mill cops aren't. When I hear of accidental discharges, they almost always involve striker fired pistols like the Glocks. It's nothing personal, as some seem to believe, it's just most people (unless they're "gun" people) have a difficult time keeping their fingers off the triggers under stress, and anything that brushes against the triggers of these guns can cause them to discharge. I keep remembering that guy who was killed by the cop while being cuffed. For some reason the cop couldn't keep his finger off the trigger. It was his fault. At the same time, it wouldnt have happened had the gun been a Sig P226 or a Beretta M92.

All I'm saying is that the striker-fired "plastic" guns have a lot going against them when it comes to training and using under stressful situations. They're not guns you can stuff under your waistbands if you need both hands. By saying this I'm not attacking anyone's religion or heritage. I'm just making an observation that I think the guns need safeties and I don't think that thing on the trigger qualifies as a safety. Just my opinion. Many accidental shootings, I think, could be prevented by going to other, safer guns.

In a single action, the trigger only releases the hammer. One single action. In a double action, the trigger pulls and releases the hammer. Two distinct actions. On the Glock, the striker is held at about 60%. Pulling the trigger draws the striker back the additional 40% and releases it. This ensures drop safety in that even if the other passive safeties are damaged and the striker is released by impact, in theory there is not enough energy with only a 60% load on the striker to set off a round. So the Glock is technically 60% SA, 40% DA. But that wasn't an option on the ATF form. If you have a giraffe but the list says zerba or elephant, what box do you check?

There are guys out there like Larry Vickers. Dude is a "been there done that" guy, and operator well respected in his field who trains those who go into harms way. He used to build 1911s that were well sought. He has an enviable 1911 collection. He carries a S&W M&P. With a little research, you can find multiple examples of this. The 1911 hasn't been top-of-the-line since 1935 when the Hi Power came out and arguably hasn't been relevant since the mid-1980s when it was replaced as standard issue in US armed service. That was when Beretta, SIG, Glock and others started coming out with the "Wonder Nines" and the 1911 started losing ground in issued service. Very few people issue 1911s today for a good reasons; the are heavier than the polymer and alloy framed guns and have half the capacity, they are expensive and can require more hand-fitting. By the late 80s even Jeff Cooper was willing to admit the design was past its prime and that is why the 10mm was introduced in a modified CZ-75. Witness also that some shooting schools have separate courses for 1911s because slowing down an entire class of guys shooting 15+1 Glocks to wait for the one 1911 shooter reloading every 8 rounds can be a bummer.

Compared to hammer fired guns, the striker fired guns tend to be simpler and have a lower bore axis. Compared to steel framed guns, polymer is lighter, cheaper, more modular, more temperature neutral, and offers more capacity with less vibration and shock. This is dispassionate fact, not conjecture.

The 1911 enjoyed a 10 year period of resurgent interest from 1994 to 2004 during the AWB. Now that we no longer have that nonsense there is not much reason to select a 1911 over more modern pistols.

Coal Dragger said:

The 1911 enjoyed a 10 year period of resurgent interest from 1994 to 2004 during the AWB. Now that we no longer have that nonsense there is not much reason to select a 1911 over more modern pistols.

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Maybe for you. Others obviously think differently.

MTMilitiaman said:

The 1911 hasn't been top-of-the-line since 1935 when the Hi Power came out and arguably hasn't been relevant since the mid-1980s when it was replaced as standard issue in US armed service.

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The 1911 has been/is built by over 100 different manufacturers, and today there are more than a few top-notch pistolsmiths churning out as many $3,000 and more semi-customs that they can build...

It is to the handgun world what the M98 is to the rifle world, and true smiths as well as true gun lovers will always have a spot on the rack with one or more of them.

One thing that the plastic wonders and a gazillion other guns lack is soul. But this is not something you can market, it's something one can recognize, or not.

Just like quartz has rendered mechanical watches "obsolete"... Today Seiko outsells Vacheron Constantin, Rolex or Patek Philippe a few thousands to one, but you can't really compare them: they're not in the same league, and not for the same people.

Coal Dragger said:

The 1911 enjoyed a 10 year period of resurgent interest from 1994 to 2004 during the AWB.

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More BS from CD, IPSC was founded in 1976 the 1911 cottage industry was very well established in the 80s and has continued well past the 2004 sunset of the AWB.

Kano383 said:

The 1911 has been/is built by over 100 different manufacturers, and today there are more than a few top-notch pistolsmiths churning out as many $3,000 and more semi-customs that they can build...

It is to the handgun world what the M98 is to the rifle world, and true smiths as well as true gun lovers will always have a spot on the rack with one or more of them.

One thing that the plastic wonders and a gazillion other guns lack is soul. But this is not something you can market, it's something one can recognize, or not.

Just like quartz has rendered mechanical watches "obsolete"... Today Seiko outsells Vacheron Constantin, Rolex or Patek Philippe a few thousands to one, but you can't really compare them: they're not in the same league, and not for the same people.

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Coalition troops in Afghanistan at first found themselves being outclassed on occasion by 100 year old SMLEs in the hands of Taliban fighters. Did they run out and buy their own Enfields? No, they put mothballed M14s in chassis stocks to serve as an interim solution while they got enough M110s into service. The SMLE was a fine rifle for its time, but it is still obsolete today. Likewise, with the Mauser. This rifle continues to be popular with sporting enthusiasts and hunters, but its days as a front line infantry rifle are over. Same with the 1911. The nostalgia attached to the design keep it in a few armories, but for the most part, people have accepted that it has been relegated to the realms of a sporting handgun. It is not a valid combat arm any more so than a Luger or 1873 Colt SAA is a valid combat arm. All of these will still poke holes in things are thus still useful, or at least better than nothing, depending on the situation, but are mostly kept as collectors pieces and game guns because they have all been eclipsed by modern technology that offers pistols that are lighter while having twice the capacity and being just as durable and reliable. The 1911 can be a functioning piece of art, which is why it appeals to people who have $3000 to spend on a handgun that can't do anything a $600 polymer can't do just as well twice as many times before reloading. This is also why many will be honest and admit that while they still enjoy the design, all their 1911s sit in the safe while a Glock or S&W striker fired gun gets strapped on the hip when they leave the wire.

People call weird things art these days. I am not an art collector. Function has a beauty all its own to me. I rock a Dodge Ram, Glock 20, and a Casio Gshock because they get the job done without the glitter. In fact, I like the guns and my trucks to look best covered in mud. You'll never find me in a suit, I wear boots, Walmart special cargos, and heavy metal t-shirts displaying bands with names like Decapitated and Slayer. So I am not one to pay extra money for shiny things. You won't impress me by making something for aesthetically pleasing than functional. The 1911 is obsolete today because it is more shiny than functional. It's a game gun. It's history and nostalgia will continue to keep it popular in this role for a while, even as you continue to see it lose ground in service to more economical designs.

You won't impress me by making something for aesthetically pleasing than functional. The 1911 is obsolete today because it is more shiny than functional. It's a game gun.

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You do have to wonder why the 1911/2011 dominates all the competition in those "games"? Especially since it's so outdated, obsolete and built to be shiny?

tarosean said:

You do have to wonder why the 1911/2011 dominates all the competition in those "games"? Especially since it's so outdated, obsolete and built to be shiny?

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Surely it's for the same reason that Formula One drivers favor the kind of cars that they drive over, say, trucks. For the cool looks. If they were really serious about performance, they'd pick a truck, because trucks work in mud. Anything other than mud-related performance is aesthetics.

tarosean said:

You do have to wonder why the 1911/2011 dominates all the competition in those "games"?

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I wonder how guy's lump 3" alloy Kimbers and doublestack Para-Ords in when they want to talk reliability and yet all 1911s are low capacity and weigh a ton.

MTMilitiaman said:

The 1911 is obsolete today because it is more shiny than functional. It's a game gun. It's history and nostalgia will continue to keep it popular in this role for a while, even as you continue to see it lose ground in service to more economical designs.

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Nope. It's not a game gun, it's a craftsman gun. Whether for the smiths that work on it or for the shooters that use it, it asks dedication, understanding, and skills.

Of course a plastic/stamped metal, 18 rounds in the butt, mass-produced on CNC machines military tool is what you need to arm troops... But someone who understands quality, who has a feel for craftsmanship, will still go for the centenarian design. And this won't go away... There are actually more high-end 1911 produced now by more top-notch smiths than forty years ago.

So I think we have our answer, and it is an old one: it is not enough to be right, the other guy must be wrong as well.

Do y'all really think that SIG, Ruger, et al aren't chunking 1911s out on CNC machines using the same tolerances and parts interchangeability as their 320s, Americans, ETC? That they are hand fitting each 1911 they sell? Or for that matter that they started producing 1911s due to an AWB that had expired years before they brought their first 1911s to market? Really?

MTMilitiaman said:

You'll never find me in a suit, I wear boots, Walmart special cargos, and heavy metal t-shirts displaying bands with names like Decapitated and Slayer.

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Just for you.. While we may have the same taste in music, we are still on very different sides.

ManInLowCastle said:

I don't think anyone recovers from shooting a good single action - being it a 1911, SA Colt, or whatever. Once you've had it you don't want to give it up.

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For me, this sums it all up.

Popularity doesn't determine if something is obsolete or not. Function does. It doesn't matter if a pistol weighs 2.5 pounds, has eight rounds in the magazine, and costs $2500 when it is only carried on the range, no one is shooting back at you, and you're sponsored. The 1911 has seen its share of combat around the world, but that was against the Luger, Nambo, and other 8 or 9 + 1 single stack, steel framed autos. Since the P35, CZ-75, and others came on to the scene, people started expecting more from their service autos. I am on the other side. I've had access to several 1911s, even a couple with some tuning by a smith. I owned a SAO SIG P220. But I had this Glock 20 the whole time. And once you've had 15 rounds in the magazine, having the slide lock back on eight sucks. I'll take eight more opportunities to save my life before I reload over two pounds of trigger pressure any day of the week. Then factor in the weight savings of the polymer and it is literally a no brainer to me. Comparing nine rounds of .45 ACP in a 36 oz handgun to sixteen rounds of 10 mm Auto or eighteen rounds of 9 mm Para in a 26-ish oz pistol of the same basic footprint is clown shoes to me. Just silly. It's like saying a 1911 Stanley Touring is the equivalent of a 2016 Corvette.

The Glock is a working man's pistol. It is durable and reliable, and provides unprecedented amount of close range defensive firepower at an economical price. Glock revolutionized the market and because of it, they are still, thirty years later, even with all the competition, on the hips of around 2/3 of police officers. They are dominant in the civilian market and used extensively not only by the most elite in our military but that of nations around the world. The Glock is more popular and relevant on the world stage now than the 1911 ever was. And where do you find the 1911? In some American shooting sports, collecting dust in American safes, or in the hands of a few units still dominated more by nostalgia than common sense.

MTMilitiaman said:

I'll take eight more opportunities to save my life before I reload over two pounds of trigger pressure any day of the week.

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The 800# gorilla in the room is I can have 16+1 and a 2.5# trigger if I want with the 1911 platform, I have the budget.

And if I want I can drop a 400" twin turbo Windsor in a model T and smoke your 2016 Vette.