EUGunBan: Push for 2A in the Czech Republic

Between Czech and Swiss model, which one do you consider better?

  • Switzerland: generally easier access to firearms, but forget concealed carry

  • Czech Republic: higher innitial hurdle - must gain license first, but shall issue concealed carry

Results are only viewable after voting.
Status
Not open for further replies.
The citizens of the USA are nearly alone in the freedom to own firearms, that is any country that has a functioning government.
 
From a brief look at the Wikipedia page listed above, it looks like the people of the Czech republic have more freedoms (related to firearms) than probably a quarter of Americans do. So much for our "Shall not be Infringed".

I hope things go well for the few gun-owners that are left in the EU. It would be nice if firearms rights and ownership numbers are about to swing the other way for a while.
 
The citizens of the USA are nearly alone in the freedom to own firearms, that is any country that has a functioning government.
Click to expand...

Yemen used to have better gun laws. It was pressure and big bucks from places like Europe and the UN which go far in a third world nation that resulted in official laws that went against the wishes of the population and pushed them more towards radical Islamic groups. Gun ownership was such a big part of their culture that when the official government heavily restricted it much of the nation simply stopped listening to the capitol city and still sold guns openly, with occasional raids from authorities. This led to general disregard for the law, and the government lost most of its power outside the capital's metropolis.
Gun laws are a big part of what led Yemen's population to have no respect for the rule of law in Yemen, and eventually led to conflict.
It eventually would push a lot of the population to support radical groups like a lot of the Islamic radicals that opposed westerners and would fight for their beliefs irregardless of what laws were passed by the central government. They now have a civil war going on, and a lot of it stemmed from such things though it has moved onto sectarian violence since then as the region has a lot of that going on and the Saudis and Iran have stepped up funding opposing jihadis since the Arab spring and Islamic State.
Their rights were so much better than the US that I used to consider Yemen the ideal place to register a vessel with if I wanted to travel the high seas with effective firearms aboard. If I was to be subject to the laws of a foreign nation while on the ocean, that was the best option.
Even parts of Australia had better gun laws than the US in the 1990s. You could buy almost anything in Tasmania, including new full autos.

The world is quickly losing its firearm rights as we become a global police state where you have a high per capita security presence of armed professionals who are armed while employed by the state, a generally disarmed population, and various 'terrorists'. Most governments agree they want only those taking direct orders from them to be armed, and those they rule over to be disarmed.
 
Zoogster said:
Gun laws are a big part of what led Yemen's population to have no respect for the rule of law in Yemen, and eventually led to conflict.
It eventually would push a lot of the population to support radical groups like a lot of the Islamic radicals that opposed westerners and would fight for their beliefs irregardless of what laws were passed by the central government.
Click to expand...
In my wildest dreams I would not imagine that gun control could lead to support of extreme Islamist groups!
 
Darkbob said:
From a brief look at the Wikipedia page listed above, it looks like the people of the Czech republic have more freedoms (related to firearms) than probably a quarter of Americans do.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't it be more like a half, given that gun control is mostly enacted in highly populated places like California or NY?
 
Darkbob said:
From a brief look at the Wikipedia page listed above, it looks like the people of the Czech republic have more freedoms (related to firearms) than probably a quarter of Americans do.
Click to expand...
Snejdarek said:
Wouldn't it be more like a half, given that gun control is mostly enacted in highly populated places like California or NY?
Click to expand...
Here are the states that are known for stricter gun control (population in millions):
Illinois (12.8m), Rhode Island (1.1m), Maryland (6.0m), Hawaii (1.4m), Connecticut (3.6m), New York (19.7m), Massachusetts (6.8m), New Jersey (8.9m), California (39.3m), Washington D.C. (0.7m).

Using the rounded numbers I listed above, that equals 100.3 million people in states with stricter than average (for the U.S.) gun control. Seeing as the population of the 50 states + D.C. = 323.1 million, that comes out to:
31% of Americans live in a state with (relatively) strict gun control. :oops:

By the way, I used the July 1, 2016 population estimates given here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_population
 
Civic Democratic Party, the main right wing opposition and leader of government coalitions in 1993-1998, 2006-2013, has now pledged to "defend the gun rights even if it will lead to European Union sanctions." This is pretty hefty, unheard of any time before, even during the Migrant Crisis.

Also, as the original proposal by Social democratic Minister of Interior (leading government coalition party) faced opposition by ANO Ministers of Defense and Justice (second government coalition), apparently a reworded version is now being negotiated between the two parties which should have backing of both.

I was unable to find what exact wording they are working on, needless to say it will probably be one that will be further from 2A and closer to achieving the original target (proclaiming gun ownership as national security issue and thus outside of scope of EU law).
 
Here is a pic of Minister of Interior in his recent video, where he is explaining why he proposed the constitutional amendment. The autumn parliamentary election will be interesting.

16508424_605544616300730_8935850504005053558_n.png


 
Care to give us English a synopsis, if not a verbatim translation?

I don't mean to be rude or distract, but what do we all think would be a more appropriate rifle for the modern European "IKEA" household aesthetic? Winter-white AUG, perhaps?

TCB
 
He is arguing for gun rights as a small nation in opposition to much bigger more powerful economies that have more leverage and power in the EU. I think he very intentionally chose not to use a scary looking modern rifle or a handgun.


That is a strong stance to take and I hope your population rewards him for it.
 
Last edited:
barnbwt said:
more appropriate rifle
Click to expand...

The main argument of those opposing the constitutional change is that "he wants to make a wild west out of the Czech Republic". I think that the choice of the firearm strikes nice balance between the wild west and the need to address the unarmed majority of population with something that won't look too damn scary.

barnbwt said:
a synopsis
Click to expand...
1. The reasons for the proposed constitutional amendment: worsening security in Europe as well as the EU Gun Ban directive proposal
2. Legal arms owners should become a part of security of the country in a way similar to Active Army Reserves (reservists that train for 3 weeks a year).
3. The proposal does not aim at proliferation of firearms or easing legal access to firearms.
4. The existing rules for acquisition of firearms shall be preserved.
5. Use of firearms outside of self defense situation shall be criminal as it has been (the papers labeled the proposal as "kill your terrorist free card")
6. This is part of our long term work on ensuring better public safety, the Brussels attempts did not set it off, just made us proceed faster.
7. If we don't do anything, the EU rules will not only affect all firearms owners, but also owners of air guns, magazines, muzzle guns as well as decommissioned weapons.
8. The difference between legal and illegal firearm cannot rest in its magazine capacity (1:34)
9. Czech citizens have one of the highest number of semi-automatic firearms in Europe, large part of which would be liable to be surrendered under the Directive.
10. Ask yourselves how many of the newly banned firearms will end up on the black market. It is clear that the EU Gun Ban may aid terrorism instead of hindering it.

The Minister of Interior now said that if he doesn't get support of government (aiming at the other coalition parties), he will proceed and introduce the bill in the parliament as his own personal initiative before the autumn election - i.e. after 25 years of gun rights not being politicized, it will become major topic of the autumn parliamentary elections.
 
Much appreciated, Snejdarek! Ironic that a gun of the *actual* wild west is seen as less menacing than one from our peaceful present.

Totally honest, I actually like the "If you ban our guns we'll just end up selling them to terrorists" angle. Though the US has a very real black market, we like to pretend we don't and the average citizen is very insulated from it, so such a logical outcome does not readily occur to most people.

TCB
 
That is exactly what happened with mandatory registration in Austria, and it did so two times interestingly. Pump-action shotguns were free to buy until the mid 90s, then after a series of incidents they became illegal to own or purchase, but those who already owned one prior to the ban could register them to get them grandfathered. About 1% of the guns sold prior to the ban were surrendered, about 10% were registered, and what about the rest? I guess it just magically disappeared...

Did the government learn from that failure? Lets see. In 2010 it became mandatory to register any gun you own except non-repeating shotguns you owned prior to 2010. The deadline for doing that was 2012, failure to register is a felony with possible prison time. This time compliance rate was about 20%, mainly due to hunters and competition shooters who feared authorities would show up at hunting parties and shooting competitions and check the serial numbers. Big win...

So we had between 10 and 20% compliance rate with mandatory registrationd - and that in a country where usually many people go out of their way to obey the law, even if it is blatantly stupid. Try that in a place with a tradition of distrust in government power and see how far you'll get
 
Last edited:
UPDATE:

After encountering resistance from other coalition party ministers (most notably ANO's ministers of Justice and Defense), the Social Democratic Minister of Interior now officially lodged the proposal for the constitutional amendment as his his own initiative as a member of parliament. The proposal was cosigned by 35 other members of chamber of deputies from across most of the parliament parties (there are 7 in the chamber).

In order to pass, the proposal must gain support of 3/5 of all Member of Chamber of Deputies (200) and 3/5 of Senators attending (71).

There seems to be quite a strong campaign against the proposal in media right now, so we will see where it will lead to. Main arguments used by those opposing are:

- this would turn the Czech Republic into Wild West
- no other country in Europe has it in its constitution (during one TV debate, MP Petra Černochová reacted to this argument by saying "SO WHAT?", now you can buy "SO WHAT?" t-shirts online and it has kind of become an overused couple of words in gun community)
- the only country that has it in constitution is US and that is only due to historical reasons (the US liberal narrative about 2A is prevailing in Europe)
- oh look at the terrible shooting statistics in the US, do you want that here?
etc.

Here is the proposal in case anyone was friends with google translate and wanted to read it: http://www.psp.cz/sqw/historie.sqw?o=7&t=1021&sp=1
 
Government advisory vote
There was a vote at the Government concerning the proposed amendment (government always takes advisory position to all law proposals that are to be debated in the parliament).

Normally, the outcome is either 'positive', 'neutral' or 'negative'. This time, extremely rare "no position" took place as there was lack of majority to take any.

All 7 Social Democratic members of government voted for 'positive'.
4 ANO ministers voted 'negative'.
remaining 4 (ANO + Christian Democratic Party) voted 'neutral'.

8 would be needed for 'positive' vote to be successful.

This shows that the Social Democratic Prime Minister has put himself into the issue and ordered his party members to hold the line. Hopefully he will be able to get all 50 members of Chamber of Deputies in line too.

Those opposing have reduced their position to "I oppose the EU Gun Ban but the proposed Constitutional Amendment is populist and doesn't solve anything in this regard so I won't support it." I do hope that the they will now be pressured into having to answer the logical question: "OK, so what will you do then to mitigate the damage of EU Gun Ban?"

Militia
As Finns, Estonians and Swiss pushed exemption for militia into the EU Gun Ban, the Minister of Defense has now proposed his idea of "Ministry of Interior Militia". Any gun owner would be able to simply sign in and in the eyes of the law covered as exempted from the EU Gun Ban.

(Ministry of Defense is run by ANO and they are opposing any such proposals, that's why the illogical "Ministry of Interior" activism).
 
The constitutional solution has worked for us for over two centuries. In other places laws have changed, as they will, as the winds of the affairs of the day blow 'round the compass, as they will. I pray you get it.
You girl friend is a knockout.
 
Good luck with your admirable quest to maintain your personal freedom. Please keep us updated with any new developments.
 
First pledge of resistance by major political party

Civic democratic party (held the post of Prime Minister in 1992-7, 2006-9, 2010-13) pledged to defend the firearms possession in the country even if it would mean facing sanctions from the EU.

http://zpravy.idnes.cz/drzeni-zbran...-d73-/domaci.aspx?c=A170117_131834_domaci_kop

This would be a good news itself. On top of it I happened to run into the MP who was primarily behind the pledge today.
back2.jpg

https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jana_Černochová

BTW, she was on her way from a shooting range, and her CC choice is Glock 26.
 
Snejdarek said:
So Trilogue on EU Gun Ban ended and the EU Gun Ban moves forward towards vote in the EU Parliament and Council. The trilogue vote in the EU Council was as follows:
AGAINST: Czech Republic (+ Luxembourg on grounds that the Ban doesn't go far enough)
ABSTENTIONS: Austria, Switzerland (which was invited despite not having the right to vote)
FOR: all remaining countries (including Poland)
Click to expand...
POLAND agreed?!
I thought I read somewhere that they declared all able-bodied males between certain ages (and some females, I can't remember the details now) members of the national militia. Am I hallucinating?
 
Snejdarek said:
Here is Czech Annex to the vote: http://www.mvcr.cz/soubor/declaration-of-the-czech-republic-firearms.aspx



Czech Republic has never taken EU Commission to the European Court of Justice (in general this happens about once a decade in total), which just changed last week OVER ALCOHOL: http://www.denik.cz/z_domova/cesko-zazaluje-evropskou-komisi-kvuli-denaturaci-lihu-20161219.html (Czech only, use google translate)

If the government sues over this I am confident they will sue over the Directive. Or, which is more probable, they will reach agreement with the Commission that EU will respect the new Constitutional Amendment that makes individual firearms possession national security issue (thus making it out of reach of EU law) - and Czechs will keep their firearms and concealed carry while everyone else including Austrians will be bound by the Directive.
Click to expand...
TANGENT: Google Translate says it can't translate the page about the suit over alcohol, I decided to try asking it to translate it into German instead of English and it obliged, but a lot of the German is gobbledygook. The gist seems to be that the Czech Republic thinks the new EU reg will lead to tax evasion.
 
old lady new shooter said:
POLAND agreed?!
I thought I read somewhere that they declared all able-bodied males between certain ages (and some females, I can't remember the details now) members of the national militia. Am I hallucinating?
Click to expand...

I would like to see the source for that.

Poland is the most disarmed nation in Europe, one of the most disarmed on Earth.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Snejdarek
  • Locked
Proposed ammendment to the Czech Firearms Act
Replies
12
Views
1K
Snejdarek
Snejdarek
Snejdarek
  • Locked
Czechs buying guns in unprecedented rate
2
Replies
25
Views
4K
old lady new shooter
O
Snejdarek
  • Locked
Interview with key Member of European Parliament about future of gun rights in the EU
Replies
3
Views
621
paulsj
P
T
  • Locked
Britain: First your guns, then your sovereignty
Replies
24
Views
1K
ilcylic
I
Snejdarek
  • Locked
2014 Czech Gun Amnesty
Replies
6
Views
1K
Snejdarek
Snejdarek
Back
Top