When is a knife not a dangerous weapon?

12Pump · Mar 23, 2017

Answer: When it's not sharp.

So riddle me this.....

In my state of Wisconsin, the governor signed a bill into law that supposedly removes all restrictions on the ownership and concealed carry of knives, no matter the type or blade length. Here's the text of the law, although it's not easy to read or understand. At least not to me: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2015/related/proposals/ab142

For an interpretation of this, I've googled the subject and found articles that seem to make it simple, except for one thing. They say "AB 142 removes all restrictions on switchblades (automatic) knives and concealed carry of all knives from Wisconsin statutes with the single exception that a person who is prohibited under state law from possessing a firearm may also not go armed with a concealed knife that is a "dangerous weapon." This statement is from the website: http://www.kniferights.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=330

I've been considering getting a knife that is made for self defense. Something simple like this one would seem perfect: http://www.trueswords.com/images/prod/classic_selfdefense_boot_knife.jpg
However, if I were to be carrying this concealed and was searched by the police during a traffic stop, I'd like to know how on earth the police could restrain himself from arresting me for carrying a "dangerous weapon". After all, the word "dangerous" is defined as able or likely to cause harm or injury. Doesn't that define ANY knife that is sharp? If so, then this law doesn't remove all restrictions. The text of the law doesn't define what a dangerous weapon is and how it differs from what a knife is and what it can do.

I just want to get this all figured out so I don't get myself into legal trouble. Thanks in advance for your help in figuring all this out.

Coyote3855 · Mar 23, 2017

Are you "prohibited under state law from possessing a firearm?" If not, it would seem you have no worries. If you are, I suspect the linked knife could be seen as a dangerous weapon whereas a Swiss Army Knife would not. This is just my uninformed opinion and should not be used by you to "figure this out."

I once asked a deputy sheriff buddy about the legality of a certain knife in our county. He said "If you're coming back from the mountains with a deer or a cooler of trout in the back of the pickup, no LEO I know would hassle you. If you're hanging around the ATM at midnight wearing a ski mask, it's a different story."

You need to get clarification. I suggest your local district attorney, or your personal lawyer. No offense to LEOs, but it is not their job to interpret the law.

This begs the question of whether or not a knife is a good choice for self defense. You may get a plethora of opinions on that topic.

12Pump · Mar 23, 2017

Coyote3855 said:
Are you "prohibited under state law from possessing a firearm?" If not, it would seem you have no worries. If you are, I suspect the linked knife could be seen as a dangerous weapon whereas a Swiss Army Knife would not. This is just my uninformed opinion and should not be used by you to "figure this out."

I once asked a deputy sheriff buddy about the legality of a certain knife in our county. He said "If you're coming back from the mountains with a deer or a cooler of trout in the back of the pickup, no LEO I know would hassle you. If you're hanging around the ATM at midnight wearing a ski mask, it's a different story."

You need to get clarification. I suggest your local district attorney, or your personal lawyer. No offense to LEOs, but it is not their job to interpret the law.

This begs the question of whether or not a knife is a good choice for self defense. You may get a plethora of opinions on that topic.

No, I'm not prohibited. I may end up calling or writing to my district attorney. I did call the police department once to ask a knife legality question long ago and was told, "We don't give legal advice", even though I was asking if a certain thing was legal or not. I'm sure if they caught me carrying what I was asking about, they'd have all kinds of "legal advice" as they were handcuffing me and charging me with crimes.

As for being a good choice for defense, I agree that it's not the best. I own handguns and could get a permit to carry it here, but the law in my state would pretty well prevent me from using the permit. So many hurdles! For example, most places I go have signs prohibiting CCW. Also, if I were to carry my gun and permit with me on a walk around the block in my neighborhood, I'd be a felon as soon as I stepped off my property because I live within 1,000 feet of a school. Same goes for if I were riding a bike. It's only legal if I'm in a car. There are other violations that would be hard to avoid too, which is why I figured it would be simpler to just forget about the permit and get a good fixed blade knife since they would be easier to carry and it appears as if no permit is needed for that. I was attacked once by an off-leash pitbull at the public park near me that I had walked to a few years ago. I was unarmed and had to rely on the dog to not actually bite me after it came at me full-sprint from the other side of the park while the owner just watched. But if I had a knife, I would have held it out as something for the dog to bite down on instead of my hand or arm if he had ended up lunging at me. That would make a second attempt at biting me unworthwhile. Still not the best, but better than nothing--and apparently a knife in that situation wouldn't have had me carrying a gun within 1,000 feet of a school, which would make me a felon and cause me to lose my gun and permit for life.

red rick · Mar 23, 2017

Virginia has some good firearm laws , but knives are a different story , even with a CC permit . It sounds like you have a good governor in Wisconsin .

Jackal · Mar 23, 2017

A knifes only dangerous if you are harming someone with it.

glistam · Mar 23, 2017

I don't seen what's so confusing. The statute as of this writing prohibiting carrying a concealed weapon (941.23) states

(ap) Notwithstanding s. 939.22 (10), “dangerous weapon" does not include a knife.

Therefore, you cannot violate 941.23 by carrying a knife. Period.

You could violate 941.231, as it is a separate law, but to violate it at all you'd have to be a convicted felon or some other legal circumstance that would bar you from owning a firearm in WI. If you're not, it doesn't apply, so the question of what is a dangerous weapon is moot.

Drail · Mar 23, 2017

Almost anything can be considered to be a weapon. The term "dangerous" is kind of meaningless. Silly politicians.

12Pump · Mar 24, 2017

glistam said:
I don't seen what's so confusing. The statute as of this writing prohibiting carrying a concealed weapon (941.23) states

Therefore, you cannot violate 941.23 by carrying a knife. Period.

You could violate 941.231, as it is a separate law, but to violate it at all you'd have to be a convicted felon or some other legal circumstance that would bar you from owning a firearm in WI. If you're not, it doesn't apply, so the question of what is a dangerous weapon is moot.

Thank you for that reference! I went to the source and copy/pasted it in case I ever need to use it if stopped by the police or taken to court. That's exactly the information I was looking for!

hso · Mar 25, 2017

12Pump said:
Answer: When it's not sharp.

So riddle me this.....

In my state of Wisconsin, the governor signed a bill into law that supposedly removes all restrictions on the ownership and concealed carry of knives, no matter the type or blade length. Here's the text of the law, although it's not easy to read or understand. At least not to me: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/2015/related/proposals/ab142

For an interpretation of this, I've googled the subject and found articles that seem to make it simple, except for one thing. They say "AB 142 removes all restrictions on switchblades (automatic) knives and concealed carry of all knives from Wisconsin statutes with the single exception that a person who is prohibited under state law from possessing a firearm may also not go armed with a concealed knife that is a "dangerous weapon." This statement is from the website: http://www.kniferights.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=330

I've been considering getting a knife that is made for self defense. Something simple like this one would seem perfect: http://www.trueswords.com/images/prod/classic_selfdefense_boot_knife.jpg
However, if I were to be carrying this concealed and was searched by the police during a traffic stop, I'd like to know how on earth the police could restrain himself from arresting me for carrying a "dangerous weapon". After all, the word "dangerous" is defined as able or likely to cause harm or injury. Doesn't that define ANY knife that is sharp? If so, then this law doesn't remove all restrictions. The text of the law doesn't define what a dangerous weapon is and how it differs from what a knife is and what it can do.

I just want to get this all figured out so I don't get myself into legal trouble. Thanks in advance for your help in figuring all this out.

When the original law doesn't define an "illegal/dangerous" knife as dirks/daggers the repeal laws don't address such definitions. Such appears to be the case in WI.

I find it best to go to the relevant statute to puzzle things out - http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/939/I/22

Failing that a request to the spondor of the Knife Rights repeal bill can be useful where they're the group that worked to change the law.

Whenever someone shows a dagger as a defensive tool, but is unsure of the legality of carrying a dagger, I like to point out three things. First, there are legions of defensive fixed blade knives that are not double edged or dagger shaped that work just as well. Second, there are equally, if not more, effective defensive tools to consider. Third, any defensive tool selection should be done with some training since no defensive tool is a magic wand that banishes bad guys upon appearance.

12Pump · Mar 25, 2017

hso said:
When the original law doesn't define an "illegal/dangerous" knife as dirks/daggers the repeal laws don't address such definitions. Such appears to be the case in WI.

I find it best to go to the relevant statute to puzzle things out - http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/939/I/22

Failing that a request to the spondor of the Knife Rights repeal bill can be useful where they're the group that worked to change the law.

Whenever someone shows a dagger as a defensive tool, but is unsure of the legality of carrying a dagger, I like to point out three things. First, there are legions of defensive fixed blade knives that are not double edged or dagger shaped that work just as well. Second, there are equally, if not more, effective defensive tools to consider. Third, any defensive tool selection should be done with some training since no defensive tool is a magic wand that banishes bad guys upon appearance.

As Glistam showed me, it appears that a knife is no longer defined as a dangerous weapon:

941.23 Carrying concealed weapon.

(1) In this section:

(ag) “Carry" has the meaning given in s. 175.60 (1) (ag).

(ap) Notwithstanding s. 939.22 (10), “dangerous weapon" does not include a knife.

(ar) “Destructive device" has the meaning given in 18 USC 921 (a) (4).

(b) “Firearm silencer" has the meaning given in s. 941.298 (1).

I'm pretty sure a knife that some refer to as a dagger is still defined as a knife. Here's the one I was thinking of getting. It's made by Smith & Wesson. They call it a boot knife: https://www.knifecenter.com/item/SW...ife-fixed-double-edge-blade-rubberized-handle I like it because it would be easy to grab the handle from different directions due to being simply flat and ambidextrous instead of being designed to be held a certain way.

glistam · Mar 25, 2017

12Pump said:
I'm pretty sure a knife that some refer to as a dagger is still defined as a knife.

Merriam-Webster defines dagger as "a sharp pointed knife for stabbing." OED defines it as "A short knife with a pointed and edged blade, used as a weapon." It may amuse people to know that judges will actually pull out a dictionary when a common English term is not defined in law, and use that to make decisions.

Here's the one I was thinking of getting. It's made by Smith & Wesson. They call it a boot knife: https://www.knifecenter.com/item/SW...ife-fixed-double-edge-blade-rubberized-handle I like it because it would be easy to grab the handle from different directions due to being simply flat and ambidextrous instead of being designed to be held a certain way.

I own this knife! It was a gift and I don't carry it because my laws are different, but it's pretty decent for the money. Probably not useful for anything else though.

12Pump · Mar 25, 2017

glistam said:
Merriam-Webster defines dagger as "a sharp pointed knife for stabbing." OED defines it as "A short knife with a pointed and edged blade, used as a weapon." It may amuse people to know that judges will actually pull out a dictionary when a common English term is not defined in law, and use that to make decisions.

I would hope that those definitions wouldn't play into a judge's decision. Even a handgun is allowed to be carried with a CCW permit, and nobody could reasonably argue in court that they were carrying a handgun for anything other than to use it as a weapon. I would certainly hope that a knife carried for the same purpose wouldn't look any worse in the eyes of the law.

glistam said:
I own this knife! It was a gift and I don't carry it because my laws are different, but it's pretty decent for the money. Probably not useful for anything else though.

The cost is one of the reasons I like it. It's advertised on the Scheels website for $17. It sure beats paying $60 or more for the same style other brands sell it for, probably due to being made with better quality steel. For a defense knife, it probably wouldn't matter as much how easy it is to sharpen or how long it can hold its edge. Just a simple, ambidextrous, low cost knife that's easy to carry.

JeffG · Mar 25, 2017

I teach CCW in Wisconsin. All concealed knife laws, including switchblades balisongs, etc., have been repealed. This remains:
941.231 Carrying a concealed knife. Any person who is prohibited from possessing a firearm under s. 941.29 who goes armed with a concealed knife that is a dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
Meaning (941.29)
Felons, mental commitments, or bond conditions....
Endangering safety would be the only other applicable statute.
So, a knife remains an instrument of purpose to which it is being applied. If you are cutting onions, it is a knife; if you are stabbing your room mate, it is a weapon. Granted, the knife you choose may not be your coupon cutter, but it will still be ok. There are no limitations on style, blade length etc.

barnbwt · Mar 25, 2017

It's wiggle room to let mealy-mouth politicians exempt (or not) certain classes of knives at their discretion. That's all. "A good old Randall? Now, that's a respectable knife. That Bowie? Tisk, tisk..."

Might as well be 'assault knife'

TCB

JeffG · Mar 25, 2017

barnbwt said:
It's wiggle room to let mealy-mouth politicians exempt (or not) certain classes of knives at their discretion. That's all. "A good old Randall? Now, that's a respectable knife. That Bowie? Tisk, tisk..."

Might as well be 'assault knife'

TCB

I guess I'm screwed with my RJ Martin kwaiken!

Speedo66 · Mar 26, 2017

Coyote3855 said:
No offense to LEOs, but it is not their job to interpret the law.
.

That's sort of a humorous statement, who do you think is going to interpret the law to see if an arrest is warranted?

How many residents of Madison went on suicide watch once this law was announced?

Coyote3855 · Mar 26, 2017

Speedo66 said:
That's sort of a humorous statement, who do you think is going to interpret the law to see if an arrest is warranted?

Read the rest of my post. I suggested the OP ask the district attorney or another lawyer in preference to a law enforcement officer.

xXxplosive · Mar 27, 2017

In NJ it's either work related or with a hunting or fishing lic. .....I believe.

12Pump · Mar 27, 2017

JeffG said:
I teach CCW in Wisconsin. All concealed knife laws, including switchblades balisongs, etc., have been repealed. This remains:
941.231 Carrying a concealed knife. Any person who is prohibited from possessing a firearm under s. 941.29 who goes armed with a concealed knife that is a dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
Meaning (941.29)
Felons, mental commitments, or bond conditions....
Endangering safety would be the only other applicable statute.
So, a knife remains an instrument of purpose to which it is being applied. If you are cutting onions, it is a knife; if you are stabbing your room mate, it is a weapon. Granted, the knife you choose may not be your coupon cutter, but it will still be ok. There are no limitations on style, blade length etc.

Thank you very much for your input! I don't think I could get better advice than from a CCW instructor here in Wisconsin.

The one thing that confuses me is when people say that it is "an instrument of purpose to which it is being applied." That would seem to be saying that the definition of whether it is a tool or a weapon is dependent on how it was applied at a particular time. That definition would be applied after the event. However, what if there was no event that a definition could be applied to? I mean, what if I was pulled over for not using my turn signal, and then the cop asked me to get out of my car and asked me if I had anything on me that he "needed to know about", and then I tell him about my knife? He asks me why I have it, and I tell him it's for personal protection. Does that now define it as a weapon under the law? After all, I didn't actually use it as a weapon, but I was carrying with the intent of using it as one if needed. But before you answer, keep in mind that a firearm being carried would have the same exact purpose as a defensive knife, and it is permitted.

Madcap_Magician · Mar 27, 2017

12Pump said:
For an interpretation of this, I've googled the subject and found articles that seem to make it simple, except for one thing. They say "AB 142 removes all restrictions on switchblades (automatic) knives and concealed carry of all knives from Wisconsin statutes with the single exception that a person who is prohibited under state law from possessing a firearm may also not go armed with a concealed knife that is a "dangerous weapon."

I've been considering getting a knife that is made for self defense. Something simple like this one would seem perfect: http://www.trueswords.com/images/prod/classic_selfdefense_boot_knife.jpg
However, if I were to be carrying this concealed and was searched by the police during a traffic stop, I'd like to know how on earth the police could restrain himself from arresting me for carrying a "dangerous weapon".

This is a nonissue unless you are prohibited from possessing a firearm. I would imagine that if you were carrying a knife that falls under the statutory definition of 'dangerous weapon,' you could simply present a Wisconsin concealed carry permit and be allowed on your way. Otherwise the officer would release you after running your criminal record and finding nothing disqualifying.

... unless you are prohibited from possessing a firearm.

Then...

12pump said:
After all, the word "dangerous" is defined as able or likely to cause harm or injury. Doesn't that define ANY knife that is sharp? If so, then this law doesn't remove all restrictions. The text of the law doesn't define what a dangerous weapon is and how it differs from what a knife is and what it can do.

WIS 939.22(10) does define what a dangerous weapon is: "Dangerous weapon" means any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded; any device designed as a weapon and capable of producing death or great bodily harm; any ligature or other instrumentality used on the throat, neck, nose, or mouth of another person to impede, partially or completely, breathing or circulation of blood; any electric weapon, as defined in s. 941.295 (1c) (a); or any other device or instrumentality which, in the manner it is used or intended to be used, is calculated or likely to produce death or great bodily harm.

This statutory definition is very similar to Minnesota's, so it's pretty familiar to me.

Under this the most reasonable meaning to me would be "Any knife that is designed as a weapon," or "Any knife, regardless of whether it was designed as a weapon, that is used in a manner likely to produce death or great bodily harm."

Thus, a double-edged dagger is likely to be considered a dangerous weapon because daggers as a knife design really don't have a use other than as a weapon. A Buck 119 would not be considered a dangerous weapon... unless you used it to stab or try to stab someone, in which case it would then become a dangerous weapon by virtue of your use of it as such.

12Pump · Mar 27, 2017

Madcap_Magician said:
This is a nonissue unless you are prohibited from possessing a firearm. I would imagine that if you were carrying a knife that falls under the statutory definition of 'dangerous weapon,' you could simply present a Wisconsin concealed carry permit and be allowed on your way. Otherwise the officer would release you after running your criminal record and finding nothing disqualifying.

... unless you are prohibited from possessing a firearm.

From what I can tell, I'm not prohibited. I've passed background checks to purchase firearms before. But the CCW permit has its own problems here. I could get one, and would prefer to do that and carry a pistol, but there are other laws that prevent me from doing that even with a permit. Most places I go prohibit CCW. I ride a bicycle most of the time, so I couldn't leave a pistol on my bike when I go into a prohibited place. Also, I live within 1,000 feet of a school, where it's a felony to carry even with a permit. So if I go for a walk or bike ride with a pistol and permit, I commit a felony as soon as I cross my property line. About the only thing I could do is carry it in my car, and leave it in the car. That pretty much defeats the purpose of a permit.

OTOH, I can supposedly carry a knife of any type without a permit. I just would like to carry an effective one without it being redefined as something other than simply a knife. Carrying a knife instead of a gun is already a compromise as it is.

Madcap_Magician · Mar 27, 2017

12Pump said:
From what I can tell, I'm not prohibited. I've passed background checks to purchase firearms before. But the CCW permit has its own problems here. I could get one, and would prefer to do that and carry a pistol, but there are other laws that prevent me from doing that even with a permit. Most places I go prohibit CCW. I ride a bicycle most of the time, so I couldn't leave a pistol on my bike when I go into a prohibited place. Also, I live within 1,000 feet of a school, where it's a felony to carry even with a permit. So if I go for a walk or bike ride with a pistol and permit, I commit a felony as soon as I cross my property line. About the only thing I could do is carry it in my car, and leave it in the car. That pretty much defeats the purpose of a permit.

OTOH, I can supposedly carry a knife of any type without a permit. I just would like to carry an effective one without it being redefined as something other than simply a knife. Carrying a knife instead of a gun is already a compromise as it is.

It's still a nonissue as long as you're not a prohibited person, regardless of what type of knife it is. It's not too complicated to figure that out- if you honestly answer all of the questions on a form 4473 and pass the NICS check, you're not a prohibited person.

Also, WIS 948.605 regarding carry in a school zone defines a school zone as "in or on the grounds of a school" or "within 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school," but per 948.605(2)(b)(1r) specifically exempts concealed-carry permit holders from the second half of the definition of a school zone, so I don't know what you mean by it's a felony to carry even with a permit. As long as you have a permit and don't go onto the school grounds, it's not.

Speedo66 · Mar 27, 2017

Coyote3855 said:
Read the rest of my post. I suggested the OP ask the district attorney or another lawyer in preference to a law enforcement officer.

I did read it, and I understand your point. But to say it's not a cop's job to interpret the law in regards to what he or she should arrest for seems a little counter intuitive.

Unfortunately, a DA or police officer can also be swayed by public opinion when dealing with subjective matters like this. A case where an offense may have been committed is sometimes dependent on who or what was involved, on the community's leaning at the time, and whether the press is involved.

JeffG · Mar 27, 2017

12Pump said:
Thank you very much for your input! I don't think I could get better advice than from a CCW instructor here in Wisconsin.

The one thing that confuses me is when people say that it is "an instrument of purpose to which it is being applied." That would seem to be saying that the definition of whether it is a tool or a weapon is dependent on how it was applied at a particular time. That definition would be applied after the event. However, what if there was no event that a definition could be applied to? I mean, what if I was pulled over for not using my turn signal, and then the cop asked me to get out of my car and asked me if I had anything on me that he "needed to know about", and then I tell him about my knife? He asks me why I have it, and I tell him it's for personal protection. Does that now define it as a weapon under the law? After all, I didn't actually use it as a weapon, but I was carrying with the intent of using it as one if needed. But before you answer, keep in mind that a firearm being carried would have the same exact purpose as a defensive knife, and it is permitted.

I got(back) here a little slow. But a knife is a knife, not necessarily a weapon. The intent of the law change is that because a knife opens in a certain manner, or that it is concealed, it does not become a dastardly, evil instrument, and you may conceal it. Conceal your favorite knife, as long as you are eligible to possess a firearm, you are legally good. A knife used in an act determines the category. Knives that fit specific uses, such as defense can still be camp knives, utility knives, or just legally carried knives.

JeffG · Mar 27, 2017

Ok, the photo is a partial collection of knives I might carry (one or two at a time) at any given time, concealed.Yes, I'm a knife guy.
I feel confident that none of them would cause me any grief at the point of contacting Law Enforcement in Wisconsin. The point of announcing you are wearing a knife is important.
During a traffic stop, when asked to get out of your vehicle or other contact, it is only polite to say, for example,"I'm wearing a belt knife on my strong side, what would you like me to do?" Keep your hands visible, and follow the officer's instructions.

When is a knife not a dangerous weapon?

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