Combat Shotguns: Dying?

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Cooldill said:
Pistol caliber carbines used by SWAT?
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That's why he said:

Remember that they served just fine in the hands of our special ops and SWAT teams (and still do in some cases) for a long time.
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And he's right, there was a time when the HK MP5 was THE gun to have. Now the PCCs and SMGs have been pretty much replaced with the 5.56 due to increased effectiveness and less chance of over penetration.

On my PD we had a couple MP5s, great gun, utterly reliable.

Chuck
 
The downside to shotguns vs metal cartridge guns for home defense are the shotgun hulls if kept in a box magazine after a while, 6 months or so will start to deform and lose their round shape from being compressed.


I would like to see a squirrel make it through a buckshot round.


I can use anything I want to protect my property and to be honest what I trust is a model 500. Definitely not a DI AR.
 
I used the MP5 and a AR variant in 9mm extensively in the past. Ideal for close-in work (like HD) but not the weapon you would want in an engagement enroute to the objective or on approach to the breach point, esp. if people are firing at you with rifles of any kind from any sort of distance. IMO, someone with a MP5 would be outgunned by a bad guy with a rusty old hunting rifle firing at him/her from a distance of 50 yards or further. HD usually indicates indoor engagements at very close distances.
 
I can only answer for myself, and to a degree, what I see my LE colleagues doing. I have carried a shotgun at work since 1984, night shift big-city police patrol, with a brief interruption in 2002/2003, when I carried a patrol rifle, and allowed myself to be persuaded to sell my shotgun. I agree that the AR15 gets more attention these days, but the shotgun remains a visible presence, especially among officers who have not yet attended one of the too-rare 40-hour certification classes.

I bought an 870P soon after realizing my error in selling my prior shotgun, and for a while, had both shotgun and AR15 with me, on patrol. As my eyesight diminished, and my aging, gimpy right knee rebelled against the timed, athletic patrol rifle Qual, I elected to let my AR15 certification lapse, and sold my Colt Govt Carbine to a younger officer. I still have that 870P, and just bought another.

I have no argument with those who prefer an AR15, or equivalent carbine, for self/home-defense. Their reasons for preferring the defensive rifle/carbine are valid. I am quite comfortable with the shotgun, and the real-world, local results of buckshot pellets stopping felons, from time to time, validate with my comfort level with my choice of weapon and ammo. (I keep slugs around, too.)

I would, almost certainly, prefer a rifle for police patrol if I worked during daylight hours. (That would be unlikely, as our nearly-black, dark navy blue uniforms become instant-bake ovens under the harsh Texas sun, and I am less heat-tolerant than during my younger days.) At night, an 870P is comforting enough.

Off the clock, there are times and environments that favor one or more of our rifles. Most of the time, however, especially at home, an 870P is my comfort gun.

I am not trying to persuade or convert anyone. This is what works for me.

Be safe and well, and have a good day! :)
 
Rexster said:
I can only answer for myself, and to a degree, what I see my LE colleagues doing. I have carried a shotgun at work since 1984, night shift big-city police patrol, with a brief interruption in 2002/2003, when I carried a patrol rifle, and allowed myself to be persuaded to sell my shotgun. I agree that the AR15 gets more attention these days, but the shotgun remains a visible presence, especially among officers who have not yet attended one of the too-rare 40-hour certification classes.

I bought an 870P soon after realizing my error in selling my prior shotgun, and for a while, had both shotgun and AR15 with me, on patrol. As my eyesight diminished, and my aging, gimpy right knee rebelled against the timed, athletic patrol rifle Qual, I elected to let my AR15 certification lapse, and sold my Colt Govt Carbine to a younger officer. I still have that 870P, and just bought another.

I have no argument with those who prefer an AR15, or equivalent carbine, for self/home-defense. Their reasons for preferring the defensive rifle/carbine are valid. I am quite comfortable with the shotgun, and the real-world, local results of buckshot pellets stopping felons, from time to time, validate with my comfort level with my choice of weapon and ammo. (I keep slugs around, too.)

I would, almost certainly, prefer a rifle for police patrol if I worked during daylight hours. (That would be unlikely, as our nearly-black, dark navy blue uniforms become instant-bake ovens under the harsh Texas sun, and I am less heat-tolerant than during my younger days.) At night, an 870P is comforting enough.

Off the clock, there are times and environments that favor one or more of our rifles. Most of the time, however, especially at home, an 870P is my comfort gun.

I am not trying to persuade or convert anyone. This is what works for me.

Be safe and well, and have a good day! :)
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Thank you so much for sharing, great information.
 
Windtalkers

I put the movie WINDTALKERS in the DVD player this morning. While watching it I noticed that short barrel shotguns are in some of the combat scenes.

The shotguns are in background usually with just the front half of barrel and forearm showing. In one of the scenes the barrel is plain like a regular civilian riot gun was used. In the other scenes they have ventilated handguard, front sight with bayonet lug and wood forearms with grooves around it. There are several scenes of Gunnery Sergeant Hjelmstad that shows him with a Winchester Model 97 with ventilated handguard, front sight with bayonet lug and sling.

I had never noticed them before and they only caught my attention to this thread.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Windtalkers
 
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BSA1 said:
I put the movie WINDTALKERS in the DVD player this morning. While watching it I noticed that short barrel shotguns are in some of the combat scenes.

The shotguns are in background usually with just the front half of barrel and forearm showing. In one of the scenes the barrel is plain like a regular civilian riot gun was used. In the other scenes they have ventilated handguard, front sight with bayonet lug and wood forearms with grooves around it. There are several scenes of Gunnery Sergeant Hjelmstad that shows him with a Winchester Model 97 with ventilated handguard, front sight with bayonet lug and sling.

I had never noticed them before and they only caught my attention to this thread.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Windtalkers
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Very cool BSA1. Love to see the old trench guns in action.
 
Neither my shotgun or AR would be the first thing I reach for when things go bump in the night but they are both within reach if I need them.
 
How many of us have actually pulled the trigger in a HD scenario? Whether a shotgun or AR is better is mostly conjecture IMO. With that in mind I believe it prudent to use what you are most comfortable with. In my case it is a shotgun even though I have an AR. For my son it's an AR.
 
Cooldill said:
...I can't help but notice that this section in particular is starting to get very little activity when it comes to defensive/combat shotguns. It seems general interest in this application of the shotgun is starting to wain...
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The shotgun will always be of interest to those who understand its virtues. But I too have noticed the upsurge in interest in AR weapons and, at the same time, fewer people on here asking or telling about defense shotguns.

A part of the apparent decline in interest in shotguns may be that contributors here past and present have very nearly said it all already. A great deal of good information about selecting shotguns, ammunition and accessories is accessible here through online searches and the sticky threads.
 
Considering the cost an AR, or even most pistol cal. carbines, one can get a 18 inch barrel blue Mossberg 500 12 gauge for $150 used (but not abused) and a Tac-Star 4 shot side saddle for $25 bucks. Add some Federal True-Flite buckshot and some good slugs and that, for home defense and even bear protection will do just fine. Yes $200 bucks. And it's legal in virtually all localities in the US and Canada.

And yes, I have one. Kind of fancied up.. It's a Mariner with Magpul buttstock. But it still has the 4 shot side saddle and nothing else. No fancy do-dads. I find it very very handy!!!

No where near the money invested as my ARs. Now I would not pick a shotgun as my main arm for military use but it does fine for everything else.

Deaf
 
The Germans in World War One sure hated them, don't know of any other long arm that was petitioned to be banned from warfare.

These models were ideal for close combat and was efficient in trench warfare due to their 20 inch cylinder bore barrel. Buckshot ammunition was issued with the trench grade during the war. Each round of this ammunition contained nine 00 (.33-caliber) buckshot pellets. This gave considerable firepower to the individual soldier by each round that was fired. This shorter barrel and large amount of firepower is what made this grade ideal for trench warfare.

Although the Model 1897 and Model 1912 were popular with American troops in World War One, the Germans soon began to protest their use in combat. "On 19 September 1918, the German government issued a diplomatic protest against the American use of shotguns, alleging that the shotgun was prohibited by the law of war." A part of the German protest read that "It is especially forbidden to employ arms, projections, or materials calculated to cause unnecessary suffering" as defined in the 1907 Hague Convention on land warfare. This is the only known occasion in which the legality of actual combat use of the shotgun has been raised. However, the United States interpreted their use of the shotgun differently than Germany. The Judge Advocate General of the Army, Secretary of State Robert Lansing carefully considered and reviewed the applicable law and promptly rejected the German protest.

The rejection of their protest greatly upset the German forces, because they believed they were treated unjustly in the war. Shortly after the protest was rejected, Germany issued threats that they would punish all captured American soldiers that were found to be armed with a shotgun. This led to the United States issuing a retaliation threat, stating that any measures unjustly taken against captured American soldiers would lead to an equal act by the United States on captured German soldiers.

Brutal stuff, brutal war. Shotgun not effective, ya, right.
 
I think almost everyone has a shotgun stashed away someplace. They are so "bread & butter"
that no one thinks about them that much. They just have them.

Zeke
 
I personally don't think interest in the combat shotgun is dying out. Among younger shooters I know, interest seems to be strong. A lot of today's new shooters have a different background from the old-timers; back in the day people might grow up learning how to shoot from a dad or uncle, but these days a lot of new shooters get into it from movies and video games. And what's one of the most iconic guns in film - the pump shotgun of course. Even people who don't know guns know about the clack-clack-BOOM of the pump, followed by all the bad guys falling down dead. So of course they want one of those guns.

However, even though interest is high, proficiency is low. The traditional venues of learning the shotgun, through hunting or clays, are not accessible to a lot of people, especially those who grew up in burbs or cities. It's even harder if you don't know an old-timer who can teach you. Hence you get a lot of people who treat their shotguns as kit toys and don't shoot them all that much (I can be guilty of this too)

Personally I prefer the pump shotgun over the AR because it's very simple. There's like four stamped metal parts inside the receiver, almost nothing to break or wear out. Carbon and dirt won't stop it, just work the slide harder. It throws a heavy weight of lead that is primitive yet always effective - no hollow point or ballistics wizardry needed.
 
NoirFan said:
I personally don't think interest in the combat shotgun is dying out. Among younger shooters I know, interest seems to be strong. A lot of today's new shooters have a different background from the old-timers; back in the day people might grow up learning how to shoot from a dad or uncle, but these days a lot of new shooters get into it from movies and video games. And what's one of the most iconic guns in film - the pump shotgun of course. Even people who don't know guns know about the clack-clack-BOOM of the pump, followed by all the bad guys falling down dead. So of course they want one of those guns.

However, even though interest is high, proficiency is low. The traditional venues of learning the shotgun, through hunting or clays, are not accessible to a lot of people, especially those who grew up in burbs or cities. It's even harder if you don't know an old-timer who can teach you. Hence you get a lot of people who treat their shotguns as kit toys and don't shoot them all that much (I can be guilty of this too)

Personally I prefer the pump shotgun over the AR because it's very simple. There's like four stamped metal parts inside the receiver, almost nothing to break or wear out. Carbon and dirt won't stop it, just work the slide harder. It throws a heavy weight of lead that is primitive yet always effective - no hollow point or ballistics wizardry needed.
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Apparently you've never looked inside your shotgun, son. There's a hell of a lot more than four parts, very few of them stamped, even in a Stevens 67 or 870 express. Carbon and dirt can stop them, I've worked on many that it did; it just takes a lot more than on a semi. Life is not a video game. Get out a practice with your pump.
 
I've been a shotgun guy for a long time. Probably owned a dozen of them. I don't have any burning desire to use one anymore for bird hunting or clays. I still have 3 or 4 in my safe including and old sxs, a pump and an O/U. I've loaded and fired thousands of shells and understand the mechanics of the weapon fairly well. Even with that I've never understood why anyone would choose a shotgun for SD or a tactical situation.

The so called "tactical" aspect really isn't very tactical once you understand how limited a shotgun really is. Probably the reason LE is moving away from them. Think about it this way. You're a cop that has to engage a person with a rifle. You need to be within 70 yds to have a chance of removing the threat. Your threat can engage you at 200 yards and beyond. Sound like a handicap? It sure sounds like it to me.

The tactical shotgun is a trend about to be over. The best weapon for SD is a pistol with a spare mag in your pocket. The best tactical weapon is a rifle. If you want to shoot bunnies and birds get a shotgun. Don't buy one with handles and a short barrel.

I would think a lot of people buy shotguns for home defense based on things they read on the internet and have never even fired a shotgun. If they had they probably would have gone with a pistol or rifle. A 12ga shotgun has a lot of recoil.

I have an M1 carbine for my HD needs. Basically a PCC.
 
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CoalTrain49 said:
I would think a lot of people buy shotguns for home defense based on things they read on the internet and have never even fired a shotgun.
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Or maybe they've fired them so many times for so many different uses that they are completely confident in what they can do with one. I know that's the case with me.
 
The shotgun is my first choice because nearly all justifiable self-defense shootings are short range affairs and there is nothing better at short range.
 
entropy said:
Or maybe they've fired them so many times for so many different uses that they are completely confident in what they can do with one. I know that's the case with me.
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That could be but I bet most people have never even pattered their combat shotgun. If you know shotguns you know the pattern is everything.

I've got a Win 97 with a riot barrel, the original combat shotgun. I think the barrel is about 16 inches with no choke. Cylinder (no choke) is recommended for buckshot least you damage a barrel. I've patterned that gun at 40 yards and I'm not sure that (4) 00 balls somewhere on a police silhouette is useful. Most of that load is going to be someplace other than on that silhouette. Arm and leg hits don't count in combat.

I can guarantee you that I can take my carbine and put 3 rounds inside the 9 ring in less time it takes you to do that with your combat shotgun at 40 yards. Of course you may consider 40 yards past CQ combat range but I don't. If the combat shotgun is so effective in "combat" then why isn't it in widespread use in the military?

But if you think the combat shotgun is superior in a CQ fight than I probably won't convince you otherwise here.
 
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