Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy

You do know I'm jealous here, right?? haha Great looking deal, all the way 'round. Truth be told, I'm darned glad someone was able to take the ball and run with it! I have always had the opinion that the RR platform was capable of far more than the watered down/lawyered up shadows-of-their-former-selves were giving us. But what I'm especially pleased with is the spring is still the factory part. Most would think it needed a stronger one, not thinking the original spring- with preload added- would be up to the task of giving almost 50% more MV than a stock gun.

Anyway, well done!!
 
Please! This a no jealousy zone! I really appreciate you starting this project up. I'm really enjoying it. Interestingly, so is my brother.

I see the spring has a lot to do with it, but equally or possibly more important is the air tube/barrel. My plan, once I feel I have maxed out the air tube/barrel development, is, to remove the preload incrementally till it is the least possible, and stay at or over 400. But first I have to achieve 400+.LOL!! I am convinced that the modified preload spacer with the 8deg compensation really helps. Very smooth. I have seen no evidence od plunger distortion with 1-1/8" preload.

I have a 1938 in the mail somewhere. I have a new #25 shot tube assy in hand. This is kind of a nextish project.

I also have the picatinny rail and mounting project in development.

So much interesting to do!
 
I have to admit that I did not take any special care to "bottom out" the air tube against the retainer pin before measuring the stroke, so at least in my case the small differences in stroke length could be caused by the slotted hole in the factory air tube.
 
cobalt327 said:
I have to admit that I did not take any special care to "bottom out" the air tube against the retainer pin before measuring the stroke, so at least in my case the small differences in stroke length could be caused by the slotted hole in the factory air tube.
Click to expand...
There is very little front to rear play on any of the retainer pin to air tube fit, on any that I have worked with. I guess about 6 different ones. Have also been careful to get a close fit on the new air tubes. I will endeavor to research the stroke issue further. I have a couple more to play with now. 50th anniversary editions. At least they have the 1938/1988 medallion.
 
IMG_0358.JPG IMG_0359.JPG IMG_0333.JPG IMG_0334.JPG IMG_0345.JPG IMG_0348.JPG Update. Have the 499 barrel installed in the 1998. Also the bigger air tube and the 1-1/8" spacer.

Drum roll please!

Consistently shooting strings of 10 Avanti bb's at an average of 412/413. The highest real reading has been 417. Quite a few @416.

Had a trigger failure. Switched it out, haven't studied it much yet. Case split open. The detent ball is very rusty.

Playing with the rail. Any reason to leave it long out front? I should have tried the scope on the rail before I modified it. The scope doesn't clamp on securely. This scope fit fine on another rail. I have to do some measuring on that problem.

What is your opinion of the barrel extension poking out of the sight/plug?
 
Quote :
Consistently shooting strings of 10 Avanti bb's at an average of 412/413. The highest real reading has been 417. Quite a few @416. Unquote.

That IS outstanding.
 
hinz57 said:
Got an air tube and modified abutment finished! Took some experimentation. Shot a string that ranged from 392-398.
Click to expand...
What mods were done to the abutment? This was for use with the model 25 barrel, right? On the 'tune' that was at 398 fps, was that a drilled stock air tube or one of your handmade air tubes? Sorry to ask but I lost track of what the tune was for this!

There are still a couple of air tube tweaks to try.
Click to expand...
Did I see there was a port through both sides of the air tube? If so, was that the drilled/modified stock air tube or was it your handmade one? What are the other tweaks you mention, if I can ask?

hinz57 said:
Update. Have the 499 barrel installed in the 1998. Also the bigger air tube and the 1-1/8" spacer.

Drum roll please!

Consistently shooting strings of 10 Avanti bb's at an average of 412/413. The highest real reading has been 417. Quite a few @416.
Click to expand...
Congratulations on a job well done! I'm going to guess you'll still be a bit over 400 fps using the 'standard' Daisy zinc plated BBs. So THIS tune was 1-1/8" preload, 499 shot tube and anything else one would need to know to duplicate it?

Had a trigger failure. Switched it out, haven't studied it much yet. Case split open. The detent ball is very rusty.
Click to expand...
That's an odd failure. I have had a trigger that didn't want to catch the plunger tube when cocked (think I called it a failure to reset, IIRC). This was on the 350 fps tune. I felt the gun was unhappy at that state and I didn't keep it that way for long before I went lower on the preload.

Playing with the rail. Any reason to leave it long out front? I should have tried the scope on the rail before I modified it. The scope doesn't clamp on securely. This scope fit fine on another rail. I have to do some measuring on that problem.
Click to expand...
You guys did a good job on that, too. No real reason to make it any longer than needed to attach the optics, so if you wanted to you could cut it off just forward of the front mount. Only reason I can see to keep it long would be in case you wanted to mount something differently down the road.

What is your opinion of the barrel extension poking out of the sight/plug?
Click to expand...
I like how it looks and wouldn't change it.
 
cobalt327 said:
What mods were done to the abutment? This was for use with the model 25 barrel, right? On the 'tune' that was at 398 fps, was that a drilled stock air tube or one of your handmade air tubes? Sorry to ask but I lost track of what the tune was for this!

Did I see there was a port through both sides of the air tube? If so, was that the drilled/modified stock air tube or was it your handmade one? What are the other tweaks you mention, if I can ask?

Congratulations on a job well done! I'm going to guess you'll still be a bit over 400 fps using the 'standard' Daisy zinc plated BBs. So THIS tune was 1-1/8" preload, 499 shot tube and anything else one would need to know to duplicate it?

That's an odd failure. I have had a trigger that didn't want to catch the plunger tube when cocked (think I called it a failure to reset, IIRC). This was on the 350 fps tune. I felt the gun was unhappy at that state and I didn't keep it that way for long before I went lower on the preload.

You guys did a good job on that, too. No real reason to make it any longer than needed to attach the optics, so if you wanted to you could cut it off just forward of the front mount. Only reason I can see to keep it long would be in case you wanted to mount something differently down the road.

I like how it looks and wouldn't change it.
Click to expand...
The 398 tune. #25 barrel, 1-1/8" preload spacer, home made air tube, abutment seal teamed out for oversized air tube.

412 tune. 499 barrel,everything else the same as above.

The air tube has the inlet slot through both sides. Slot is allowing max air in possible. Went longer until no improvement.

The stock air tube is limited to a 7/64" drill. I believe we maxed at around 378.

The 1-1/8" spacer is milled on the retainer end to compensate for the retainer angle. I believe this is important.

On the rail. I would like to cut it off. I also plan to lower it some. That will require a notch to clear the sight.

Would a red dot mount to the rear like the scope? Or would it need to be mounted more forward, requiring some of the length? Same question for the leapers "bug buster". Input appreciated!

Thx!
 
hinz57 said:
The 398 tune. #25 barrel, 1-1/8" preload spacer, home made air tube, abutment seal reamed out for oversized air tube.

412 tune. 499 barrel, everything else the same as above.

The air tube has the inlet slot through both sides. Slot is allowing max air in possible. Went longer until no improvement.
Click to expand...
Got it. You know, to be honest if I could get 375-ish fps and the gun didn’t feel stressed like mine did at 350 fps, I'd be happy. But 400-plus is sure tempting.

The stock air tube is limited to a 7/64" drill. I believe we maxed at around 378.
Click to expand...
Was 378 w/a 3/4" spacer? Did you open both sides of the stock drilled air tube? If not, what was the best you got using a 7/64" air tube and 3/4" spacer? That is, if you ever used that combo.

I was only able to get a single air tube drilled to 7/64”. I couldn’t tell you which gun it’s in at the moment, but I need to find it so I can use it in a gun w/more spacer and a ‘level’ spring anchor to see what I can get.

The 1-1/8" spacer is milled on the retainer end to compensate for the retainer angle. I believe this is important.
Click to expand...
I'm starting to believe it is, too. At first I ignored the slight misalignment but your results didn't fall from thin air (ha). I'm making a new spring anchor that will contact the spring squarely, as this is easier for me to do w/the materials and tools I have available.

On the rail. I would like to cut it off. I also plan to lower it some. That will require a notch to clear the sight.

Would a red dot mount to the rear like the scope? Or would it need to be mounted more forward, requiring some of the length? Same question for the leapers "bug buster". Input appreciated!

Thx!
Click to expand...
FWIW the original Bill Brice scope mount used a notch, too. Should work even better with your rail, seeing as it’s thicker.

Lowering the rail might help w/the ‘cheek weld’; if the optic is too high the head is unsupported by the stock and many find that way harder to aim steadily. This also depends on the stock and how high the comb is.

A red dot is very flexible for eye relief in my experience. I tend to mount mine where the least amount of head movement is needed to see the dot when I shoulder the gun w/eyes closed, and then open them. This includes the red dot height as well as how far forward/rearward it is mounted. THIS short article covers other aspects pretty well.

The Bug Buster will work best w/the eye relief set to no more than 3" (my BB is set at about 2-3/4"), but you'll want to try it to see where you like it best.

I’m seriously considering relocating the trigger screw to increase the stroke. I need to see how far I can go and that will depend on if there’s any “extra” finished compression tube behind where the plunger sits now when the gun’s cocked. And if the lever can accommodate this extra distance needed to set the trigger.
 
The 370ish is #25 barrel, 3/4" spacer, stock air tube drilled to 7/64", avanti bb's. Then moved on to 1-1/8" modified spacer, larger air tube.

I didn't open both sides of a stock air tube. I don't think there is enough material there. Makes me want to open the slot longer though. We certainly saw benefit there on the larger tubing, to a point.

I think I will get some mv readings on my stock Walmart 105B. Then put in the 7/64" air tube, take some readings. Then try some spacers, to see how the progression goes. This might be more in line with the original premise of a $15.00 BB gun! Though at current price increase and sales tax it's close to a $20.00 BB gun. I'm curious to see if I get similar mv on the stock barrel vs the #25. By measurement, they are the same. In fact I have one RR that is 0.001 smaller ID than the 25....anyway, maybe this weekend.

I considered making or modifying the spring anchor. That should work fine. You may have a valid consideration of the thinner copper tubing giving you issues. Hard to say for sure.

Thanks for the info on scope mounting! We're making some mods there. All of this seems to be, try something, then modify from there.

Please keep us up to date on the trigger relocation project! I'm sure there is room to do what you propose. I believe the lever will work to a point.

By the way. I tried 1-1/4" preload and could not cock the gun. It didn't spring bind. It just wouldn't catch on the trigger. Another mystery to run to ground.

Is there a way to shoot me your mailing address privately? My email is n.h.hinz@ gmail.com
 
I agree about opening both sides of a stock air tube. I did open the one port up some, though. My problem is getting the stock air tube to 7/64". The two long bits I bought for the job both broke so I'm back to using an old, long 3/32" bit that I've use for about 6 or 7 air tubes. I'd love to have several just like it in 7/64"! But TBH I don't remember where it came from. I do know I got it to work on Rochester Quadrajet carburetors a long time ago.

That's encouraging that there's enough compression chamber to allow some rearward movement of the trigger. I believe that's going to be the easiest way to increase the stroke- providing the trigger no-reset bugaboo doesn't interfere.

I wonder what's causing the trigger to not catch? I ran into something similar on the gun that I got 350 fps from- a gun that was decidedly unhappy at that state of tune :fire:
 
We can get good quality drill bits here of almost any size. Aircraft industrial supply house in Wichita. Long 7/64" are about $3.00.

Just curious about how you plan to reposition the trigger. The holes are easy, not sure about modifying the sheet metal inside the receiver area.

I haven't had time to study the trigger failure issue yet. I think I will disassemble completely, then try to make a new pivot pin.

At least my brother is documenting everything in CAD! Makes up for when I forget....
 
There are bits oonline but not sure what brand to use. I went w/Bosch, but drilling by hand is asking too much of them and truth be told it isn't really the fault of the bit.

I will temporarily use JB Weld to extend the 'wings' for a proof of concept mock-up. If it shows promise I'll solder sheet brass to extend them.
 
IMG_0364.JPG IMG_0374.JPG IMG_0375.JPG IMG_0376.JPG Got to assemble the rail system for the RR! I pretty happy how it came out.

Shot it over the chrono again using the Walmart daisy bb's. 10 shots

Hi 417
Lo 410
Av 412
ES 7
Sd 1

I'm pretty happy with the results at this point! I feel that there isn't much room for increase in mv. I'm open to suggestions as always!

Now I want to work on accuracy. I'm pretty sure it's much more accurate than I am.

Maybe it's time to send it to the Cobalt 327 testing lab! I do have to wonder if my chrono is accurate.

I'm not very happy with the rail. It is not to picatinny rail specs. My scope is very loose with using shims under the rail clamps. Rail measures about 0.020 under specs.:cuss:
 
IMG_0367.JPG IMG_0368.JPG IMG_0369.JPG Started messing with Walmart 105B. Using Walmart daisy bb's.

Stock
Hi 259
Lo 252
Av 255
Es 7
Sd 2

7/64" air tube 1/8" spacer
Hi 288
Lo 279
Av284
Es 9
Sd 2

7/64" air tube 1" spacer

Hi 346
Lo 317
Av323
Es 29
Sd ?

I ran into catastrophic issues. I tried 1-1/4" spacer. When I cocked it something jammed. Turns out the bear trap, which, unfortunately, I hadn't disabled, got stuck and wouldn't let go. I had to remove the trigger assy a bit at a time. So after I got it to release, I borrowed a trigger out of a 50th anniversary RR. It doesn't have a bear trap at all. However it didn't reliable catch and hold the spring. The last set were shot using that trigger. I gave up do to safety concerns.

Got to place another daisy parts order!
 
hinz57 said:
Got to assemble the rail system for the RR! I pretty happy how it came out.
Click to expand...
I like the rail set up like that.

Shot it over the chrono again using the Walmart daisy bb's. 10 shots

Hi 417
Lo 410
Av 412
ES 7
Sd 1

I'm pretty happy with the results at this point! I feel that there isn't much room for increase in mv. I'm open to suggestions as always!

Now I want to work on accuracy. I'm pretty sure it's much more accurate than I am.

Maybe it's time to send it to the Cobalt 327 testing lab! I do have to wonder if my chrono is accurate.
Click to expand...
That's fabulous performance and I don't doubt your chrono- the reslts you got from the stock 105 is right where they were when I checked one. The ES and SD cannot be faulted one little bit. Shooting that consistently, it might just be a tack driver for you.

I'm not very happy with the rail. It is not to picatinny rail specs. My scope is very loose with using shims under the rail clamps. Rail measures about 0.020 under specs.:cuss:
Click to expand...
Too bad the specs are off on the rail itself. I need to check mine before I spend any time mounting it to anything.

The beartrap deal is a pain, for sure. Shame you had to sacrifice a trigger to undo it.

Looking forward to seeing how the 105 turns out for you!
 
Cobalt, would you fit your various scopes, red dots, etc. to your Aim picatinny rail? I'd like to know if other accessories will fit this rail, or if I got a dud. Also, what is the model # of your "bug buster" scope? Is there an inexpensive red dot that you prefer? Thanks!
 
I will get back to you on what the fit's like to my rail.

I have several red dots- 2 are identical Weaver Micro Dots (from Walmart, like $75.00 each IIRC), bought because of a pos. review from someone I trusted. Neither of the ones I have are very good- they both will sometimes not turn on and both sometimes shut off while shooting, and this is with .22 rimfire and airguns, and not springers either. When the work they're okay but the dot is a little large @ 4moa. Can't recommend, and I doubt the model is still being sold.

I have a Center Point Tactical Open Reflex Sight Red Dot mounted on a Ruger Mark .22 pistol, it's never given any probs. and other than being kinda clunky, it's not bad. I prob. overpaid- bought it at Cabellas for $35.00 3-4 years ago.

I use a Daisy Max View red dot on a Daisy model 74, actually works okay but the optics are not coated so a lot of reflection on the 'glass' (plastic? Dunno.) Paid $6.00 for it, used.

Have a Tru-Glo 30mm red dot, tried to use on Crosman 2400 but not enough downward elevation adjustment w/the mounts I was using. So no opinion, bought used same time as the Daisy, paid $15.00.

So none of the red dots I have are setting the world on fire. None of them are state of the art, all are cheap, relative to what a good red dot goes for. I think you can do better than what I have so they're detailed here more as reference info than anything.

Bug Buster:
Leapers/UTG 3-9x32 Scope model number SCP-M392AOLWQ

 
I measured the rail and going by the wiki page the only spec that's off is the depth of the slot. It's 0.006" shallow. This doesn't seem to affect fit to the rail, which is fine.
 
cobalt327 said:
I measured the rail and going by the wiki page the only spec that's off is the depth of the slot. It's 0.006" shallow. This doesn't seem to affect fit to the rail, which is fine.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info! I contacted the seller and he was willing to accept return. I have a lot of time invested into this rail, and it was cheap, so will probably just keep this one and shim the scope. It may be that some optics have a wider clamping range. Then there is the cost of return shipping.I wish I knew if my rail is just out of spec, and they are normally fine. Your experience suggests they are normally fine.

The scope I have is a daisy powerline. It pretty good at over 50 ft. Just won't focus well at 10 yards. Have do some more studying. Good articles and info. Thx!
 
C
cobalt327 said:
I agree about opening both sides of a stock air tube. I did open the one port up some, though. My problem is getting the stock air tube to 7/64". The two long bits I bought for the job both broke so I'm back to using an old, long 3/32" bit that I've use for about 6 or 7 air tubes. I'd love to have several just like it in 7/64"! But TBH I don't remember where it came from. I do know I got it to work on Rochester Quadrajet carburetors a long time ago.

That's encouraging that there's enough compression chamber to allow some rearward movement of the trigger. I believe that's going to be the easiest way to increase the stroke- providing the trigger no-reset bugaboo doesn't interfere.

I wonder what's causing the trigger to not catch? I ran into something similar on the gun that I got 350 fps from- a gun that was decidedly unhappy at that state of tune :fire:
Click to expand...


Cobalt, One thought on the longer drill bits breaking might be to reduce the OD of the flutes above the tip with some light sanding in a lathe. The idea there being that there will be no side resistance against the tube. Maybe leave about 1/4 ~ 1/2" of the flutes untouched at the tip end. I don't know,... just an idea for you. Chris
 
Thanks, Chris. Might be worth a try. It's just too bad Daisy doesn't make them 7/64" ID from the get-go. Personally, for what I'm looking to do, a 7/64" ID Daisy air tube would be fine. I think the way my single 7/64" air tube was drilled left a lot of airflow-robbing roughness inside the air tube. I believe the best way to go about this would be to mount them into a lathe chuck like hinz57 mentioned doing earlier. Just need to find a shop who'll do it and not charge me government contract money! lol

The good news is, a new design plunger tube isn't needed as hinz57 has demonstrated. That's a biggie, seeing as how making them up special would surely have been cost-prohibitive.
 
cobalt327 said:
Thanks, Chris. Might be worth a try. It's just too bad Daisy doesn't make them 7/64" ID from the get-go. Personally, for what I'm looking to do, a 7/64" ID Daisy air tube would be fine. I think the way my single 7/64" air tube was drilled left a lot of airflow-robbing roughness inside the air tube. I believe the best way to go about this would be to mount them into a lathe chuck like hinz57 mentioned doing earlier. Just need to find a shop who'll do it and not charge me government contract money! lol

The good news is, a new design plunger tube isn't needed as hinz57 has demonstrated. That's a biggie, seeing as how making them up special would surely have been cost-prohibitive.
Click to expand...


Cobalt,

I can see where having a small home/hobby lathe and mill would be handy for the type of work you guys are doing. A fellow at work had both. He was/is into drag bike racing. He used to make small custom parts for his bike. I do not know specifics, but he said that the (same) equipment was sold under different names and paint jobs for often hundreds of $ in cost difference. He did some pretty in depth research on the topic. I think he said that he had 5-600 in both, maybe less. Best of luck moving forwards. I am eagerly awaiting a 499 repeater. No doubt that you have given some serious thought to that.

Oh, I just remembered,.. my 499 (has) a full length piece of clear vinyl tubing on the barrel that was split and taped back on with electrical tape. The idea there is to reduce barrel oscillations/vibrations. It seemed to help. At any rate, since you guys are into wringing out every last fps/performance from the lever actions,.. I thought that I would mention it. I have also heard of people using a series of "rings" to add support between the barrel and shroud.

Heading out to shoot the .25 M-rod at 100 yards and the .22 Maximus at 50. Have fun, be safe and take care,.. Chris
 
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