4 shot groups
- Thread starter Nature Boy
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Nature Boy
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Lapua
jmorris
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That idea makes some of my worst combinations appear alright.
Only problem is, I can always tell when I am lying.
You could just keep shooting until your flyer(s) are connected with the rest of the group, you'll also have a better idea on what you can expect at that point.
Catpop
Member
I generally shoot 5 shot groups in pistol, but I think 10 shot would be better--- just only record best 5.
On other hand I really like that one shot group idea. So quick and simple!
and talk about bragging rights!
On other hand I really like that one shot group idea. So quick and simple!
and talk about bragging rights!
spitballer
Member
I'm pretty sure it's fouling that causes that to happen. It's hard to get tight groups with soft bullets after the first few rounds, at least it is for me. I finally took Bart B's advice and started focusing on groups of 10 to 20 instead of cherry picking. Wow, it's tough! There are so many factors that affect fouling...
Andrew Leigh
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@ Nature Boy. You using a Pro Chrono?
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Nature Boy
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Yes I am Andrew
Nature Boy, I do not know how to do the statistical math however, my shooting experience tells me that additional shots into the target would have removed the "flier effect" (the paper space) for a very nice grouping. That looks like a good session of shooting.
this thread jinxed me today. I went to the range to check charges or h322, h335 and Benchmark to make sure they still shot good and h322 gave me a set of 4 one hole with a flier and did it again right after flipping through this thread waiting on the barrel to cool down. 2 sets of 5 with 4 touching and one off in lala land. I wonder if the guys up at the lake were wondering who I was cursing at. LOL.
Fliers are rare, missed shot happen regularly, unfortunately.
Still danged good shooting, just need to clean it up a hair. The aggregate is looking good, but would be better with one or both of those shots out, in.
Hardtarget
Member
I always say "next time, I'm going to check after EACH shot!"...because I never know if that flyer was first...last...or in between. But I never do. I get that same little spoiler every time...so I'm glad I'm not alone. If y'all figure out a fix, please post it! It will help my mental state...I'm sure of it!
Mark
Mark
Andrew Leigh
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^^^
I often do this, I find it a very useful.
I often do this, I find it a very useful.
Meplat 308
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Yep, or shooting an aggregate ( Five 5 shot groups) with no excuses.
Either way, it gives you a much better idea of what you and the load can do.
If you look at the top 20 benchrest group scores over a couple days of shooting a few dozen 5-shot groups at 100 through 300 yards for one competitor, you'll see their group sizes vary about 6X to 7X across them; sometimes more Here's their facts:
Smallest group is not always the first one shot. Neither is the largest one.
40% of their groups are about average.
30% are a little bigger or smaller.
20% are a lot bigger or smaller.
10% are the biggest and smallest.
When a tiny few-shot group is fired, how do you tell if all variables were close to zero, or all different amounts but they all cancelled each other out?
The biggest groups show what happens when those variables add up in all directions.
Look at the group spread for the bottom 20 people in that match.
I think there are no fliers in any shooting system; rifle, ammo and whatever holds and aims the rifle. Widest shots from aiming point happen because something made them go there. Sometimes it's hard to figure out why they happen. Close scrutiny and analysis of all parts of the system always reveals the cause. Sometimes, another person helping is a benefit.
Everyone doesn't shoot the same stuff to the same level of precision. If 20 people were given the same set of components and a rifle to develop an accurate load with one or two few shot groups, there would be 20 different assembly combinations of those components as each one's choice.
Smallest group is not always the first one shot. Neither is the largest one.
40% of their groups are about average.
30% are a little bigger or smaller.
20% are a lot bigger or smaller.
10% are the biggest and smallest.
When a tiny few-shot group is fired, how do you tell if all variables were close to zero, or all different amounts but they all cancelled each other out?
The biggest groups show what happens when those variables add up in all directions.
Look at the group spread for the bottom 20 people in that match.
I think there are no fliers in any shooting system; rifle, ammo and whatever holds and aims the rifle. Widest shots from aiming point happen because something made them go there. Sometimes it's hard to figure out why they happen. Close scrutiny and analysis of all parts of the system always reveals the cause. Sometimes, another person helping is a benefit.
Everyone doesn't shoot the same stuff to the same level of precision. If 20 people were given the same set of components and a rifle to develop an accurate load with one or two few shot groups, there would be 20 different assembly combinations of those components as each one's choice.
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Quote snipped for clarity, best advice in thread.
Oh, and nice shootin' there OP !
Thanks
Ive also found that extremely high powered scopes like a 24X at 100 yards are a huge distraction. My 6-24X54 Vortex Viper is a heck of a scope, but on my 308 when doing load testing at 100 I back it down to 12 or 16X. This almost always results in better groups as at 24x with a good scope you can dang near read the newspaper at 100 yards which is a huge distraction and it makes it easier to stay on target as that 1" dot doesnt look huge in the scope. My scope on my AR (223) is a 16x and thats about the max I would ever want to use at 100 yards.
I also shoot scopes with both eyes open as I have trained my right eye to be extremely dominant and am working on training myself when I shoot pistol to keep both eyes open.
Yep, or shooting an aggregate ( Five 5 shot groups) with no excuses.
Either way, it gives you a much better idea of what you and the load can do.
I do this after Ive established that I have a good load. In an AR its simple, I just load a 20 rounder though, and shoot them in about a minute. this will give me a good idea on how well my rifle will hold up in a sustained fire situation and hold its accuracy. Bolt is a little trickier...
spitballer
Member
...Indeed it can to be. When sacrificing firepower for accuracy it's frustrating because when I look through the scope and I have such a clear picture I see no reason why every bullet can't go through the exact same hole. But it just don't work that way, and I've finally learned to accept it for what it is and move on to other challenges like windage, an area in which technique really does come into play. I've learned to genuinely enjoy the challenge of a breezy day at distance, something that used to really throw me off balance.
When I shoot my ARs I dont really feel like Im sacrificing accuracy. Well OK, maybe a little bit, but at the ranges Im shooting, I dont consider it to be an issue. Its probably has more to do with the fact I put 10 times as many rounds thru that platform than I do my bolt guns. Ive learned to deal with the multiple stages of recoil in the autoloader vs a bolt gun.
To get that overall accuracy of a load in my bolt guns, I just load up the 2 mags I have with 4 each. I have my son load the mag that is out while Im shooting the overall group of 20. I wont build a gun that doesnt have a DBM as I have sausage fingers so top loading is out.
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