We killed the plate today

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I have problems people knowing NOTHING about steel composition,
target plate composition, bullet construction, E=MC2, etc.. posting what they think
they know, which is usually not much.

I've been in the toolmaking business since 17. I'm pushing 54 soon.

Been handloading since about 20. Do the math.

Believe it or not, harder steel is EASIER to penetrate than softer steel of the same thickness.
It's called friction coefficient. Look it up.

Pretty sure I'm a little better versed on steel, bullets and physics than most that post.

Big7 said:

posting what they think

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Correction, what I've seen with my own two eyes.

Good Ol' Boy said:

Correction, what I've seen with my own two eyes.

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Bring your own two eyes down here and I'll show you (or anyone else) a 6MM 4200 FPS from a .243 Winchester
go right through a 5/8" steel plate at OVER 100 yards all day long.

silicosys4 said:

Not in my experience. Cast bullets that are anything harder than dead soft, going anything faster than 600-700fps, splatter heavily against steel plates and create a safety hazard in the form of high velocity lead splatter debris. My plates have trenches in front of each one dug in the ground by nothing except lead splatter. Objects such as woody debris to the side of plate targets show heavy damage from lead splatter if left anywhere within a few feet. I have a bullet trap and if you pin paper targets onto the mouth of them, you can see hundreds of holes in the target from pin prick to pencil eraser size after a few shots from where splattered lead particles have penetrated them from behind.

From a durability standpoint, they will give your plates the best longevity, if cast pretty soft and velocity is kept fairly low.
But a hardcast .44 magnum SWC will dimple an AR500 plate a surprising amount.

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We seem to be having different experiences. This is a 122 grain Cowboy Action 38 Spl out of a 357 lever action. It has 75% weight retention, and can be melted down and shot again. It's about a BH = 10.

I wonder if the difference is bullet velocity, or hardness, or both?

A 50 BMG with AP and API makes short work of poking holes in 1" thick steel plate.

This is a good video for folks wanting to see what happens upon impact. Sit through the whole 10 minutes and you will see the difference between mild steel and hard plate.



Or you can just watch the beginning and about 7:30 in.

We killed ours with 500 grain cast loads out of a 45-70. It snapped the mounting bolt in half.

jerkface11 said:

We killed ours with 500 grain cast loads out of a 45-70. It snapped the mounting bolt in half.

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That's a problem we have at our range, too. The mounting system will only take so much punishment. It will last a long time if you're using 9mm or something similar. Not so much with the heavy stuff.

denton said:

When a new bullet hits an old crater, there is a significant chance that the bullet will come right back at you.

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How is this possible? Consider: The bullet must come to a complete stop, before it can reverse course. If it comes to a complete stop, where does it get the energy to propel itself back at you? Bullets are not elastic, like a rubber ball. They can't store energy by compressing themselves and then de-compressing to propel themselves back toward you. They can compress and deform, but they cannot spring back to their original shape.

I'm just confused how this could happen

Big7 said:

Believe it or not, harder steel is EASIER to penetrate than softer steel of the same thickness.
It's called friction coefficient. Look it up.

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So THAT's why a file bites into that armor plate rather easily!! Pic #1 is that door panel of Armor plate I mentioned earlier. Pic #2 is the dimple left by an M-80 7.62MM ball round. Pic #3 is the small notch I cut with a mill file.

tark said:

How is this possible? Consider: The bullet must come to a complete stop, before it can reverse course. If it comes to a complete stop, where does it get the energy to propel itself back at you? Bullets are not elastic, like a rubber ball. They can't store energy by compressing themselves and then de-compressing to propel themselves back toward you. They can compress and deform, but they cannot spring back to their original shape.

I've been to a lot of IPSC (I think I got that wrong) matches. The steel plates are often as close as ten yards or so to the shooter. I could easily see the bullets, jacketed 9MMs, flatten themselves against the plate and drop straight to the ground. There was almost no rebound at all

I'm just confused how this could happen

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"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."
Just because it is a metal doesn't mean there is no energy in it.
When I was a kid there was a toy ball called a "superball." It was made of a toughened hardened rubber, and it bounced higher and with more retained energy than any soft rubber ball I ever knew. Yea, that wasn't a bullet. Bullets richochet. But what is that, if not a kind of bounce?
The energy has to go somewhere. Fire a gun obliquely at a surface of water and oh yes, that bullet might ricochet off water as well!

As for bullets "falling" after hitting the plate; did the plate move substantially upon being hit?
Maybe the energy in that circumstance is being transfered to the plate....

tark said:

How is this possible? Consider: The bullet must come to a complete stop, before it can reverse course. If it comes to a complete stop, where does it get the energy to propel itself back at you? Bullets are not elastic, like a rubber ball. They can't store energy by compressing themselves and then de-compressing to propel themselves back toward you. They can compress and deform, but they cannot spring back to their original shape.

I'm just confused how this could happen

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Imagine the crater as a parabolic reflector for what's left of the boolit.

tark said:

Bullets are not elastic, like a rubber ball. They can't store energy by compressing themselves and then de-compressing to propel themselves back toward you.

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Next time you're in a pool hall, throw a cue ball against a brick wall and then reconsider this statement.

Varminterror said:

Next time you're in a pool hall, throw a cue ball against a brick wall and then reconsider this statement.

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Just did. What happened? Nothing, the ball was chipped and so was the basement wall. there was almost no rebound effect, so what should I reconsider? I'm quite sure the ball was not real ivory, don't ask me to do this with a real ivroy ball. Maybe they will react differently.

Tommygunn said:

Maybe the energy in that circumstance is being transfered to the plate....

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I think this is the answer! Yes, the plate had to fall in order for the shot to count!

However

Tommygunn said:

Just because it is a metal doesn't mean there is no energy in it.

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There is no energy inherent in metal. Did you watch the video? Only splattered fragments (tiny ones) rebounded from the plates struck, and I'll bet they didn't go far. The original assertion by denton was that the entire bullet would come back at you, not fragments. At least that was my interpretation.

Cannibul said:

Imagine the crater as a parabolic reflector for what's left of the boolit.

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Parabolic reflectors have a very precise shape in order to function. Bullet holes in steel plates do not have that shape. Also parabolic reflectors reflect things like light and radio waves, neither of which have any mass or substance. There is no kinetic energy present

tark said:

Just did. What happened? Nothing, the ball was chipped and so was the basement wall. there was almost no rebound effect, so what should I reconsider? I'm quite sure the ball was not real ivory, don't ask me to do this with a real ivroy ball. Maybe they will react differently.

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I'm calling BS on you here. I spent too many nights working a pool hall, and had a table in my basement with cement floors too long to buy this BS.

I did a quick search on youtube - Here's a dipschit on youtube dropping a cue ball on asphalt - fast forward about 1:00 - you'll learn something.

To address another issue, there is a world of difference between a "ricochet" and a 180 degree reversal of direction. In a ricochet the bullet never stops moving. In a 180 degree reversal of course, the bullet has to come to a complete stop before it can reverse course. Once it stops moving, what gives energy again? Steel plates aren't very springy, the video shows this. And do you see any splattered fragments in that video that reversed exactly 180 degrees and headed straight back to the shooter? I sure didn't.

You can speculate and pontificate with poor analogies all you want, but bullet bounce back happens and can be very dangerous. Shooting inappropriate targets magnifies the risk, you may fire thousands of shots without incident, but it only takes one to ruin your day (or your life!).



Lucky for him, it hit the dirt in front of him before getting him in the noggin!

Varminterror said:

I'm calling BS on you here. I spent too many nights working a pool hall, and had a table in my basement with cement floors too long to buy this BS.

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I know what I saw, but I'll concede this one to you, can't argue with video. Assuming that really was a cue ball. Just kidding. I did notice that it didn't bounce all the way back to the dropper, or even a third of the way.

Regardless, I find this analogy rather pointless, cue balls aren't bullets. And an asphalt road is not a basement wall

wally said:

You can speculate and pontificate with poor analogies all you want, but bullet bounce back happens and can be very dangerous. Shooting inappropriate targets magnifies the risk, you may fire thousands of shots without incident, but it only takes one to ruin your day (or your life!).

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Read post # 41 again. A ricochet never stops moving. Where, anywhere in this thread did I say ricochets aren't dangerous? I only questioned the ability of a bullet to hit a already present hole in a steel plate and reverse course 180 degrees with ANY real amount of energy. If a bullet is to ricochet 180 degrees, it has to come to a stop. What gets it moving again?

Looking at the video again, where is it said that it was the BULLET hit the shooter?? It could have just as easily have been a fragment of rock shattered by the bullet.

Believe it or not, harder steel is EASIER to penetrate than softer steel of the same thickness.

Isn't it kind of odd, then, that people making armor usually harden it, from pre-WWI to today??

(blanket statements about armor penetration are rarely right. An icepick will penetrate soft armor that will defeat a 44 mag. Some steel armor has abrupt changes with velocity, i.e. normally you expect M855 to penetrate better than M193, and as a general case that's true, but M193 has a higher muzzle velocity and at close range can sometimes defeat armor that will resist M855. IIUC, hardness is largely irrelevant for shaped charge warheads, and on and on. Armor penetration is a subject where exceptions seem to be the norm.)

tark said:

I know what I saw, but I'll concede this one to you, can't argue with video. Assuming that really was a cue ball. Just kidding. I did notice that it didn't bounce all the way back to the dropper, or even a third of the way.

Regardless, I find this analogy rather pointless, cue balls aren't bullets.

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Ok - so how about not being dismissive and explain your way around Wally's video posted above, quoted here?

wally said:

You can speculate and pontificate with poor analogies all you want, but bullet bounce back happens and can be very dangerous. Shooting inappropriate targets magnifies the risk, you may fire thousands of shots without incident, but it only takes one to ruin your day (or your life!).



Lucky for him, it hit the dirt in front of him before getting him in the noggin!

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I've had bullet bases and remnant "coins" make it back to the firing line many times, one of which a doc had to dig about 3" into my thigh to recover. We had another poster recently put up a picture of bullets on the roof of their firing line as well. It's amazing to hear anyone argue so foolishly against the reality of bullet bounce back.

An item doesn't have to be rubber to produce a 180degree "bounce" after collision.

I did forget to ask the OP:

Why would you intentionally "kill" the plate? What was the purpose of effectively ruining what had been an otherwise good service target? I have thousands of dollars invested in my steel targets, the last thing I want to have happen is some jack weed violating my range rules and running AP's through them.

tark said:

So THAT's why a file bites into that armor plate rather easily!! Pic #1 is that door panel of Armor plate I mentioned earlier. Pic #2 is the dimple left by an M-80 7.62MM ball round. Pic #3 is the small notch I cut with a mill file.

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Maybe you are being facetious? I don't know.
I have diamond files that will cut a "regular" file in half with a few strokes.
So, what exactly is your point.

Armour nowadays are layered. Harder on the outside (not to be confused with tool steel)
layered with progressively softer behind to prevent shards from blowing out the inside of the vehicle,
be it an up-armored Hummer, Striker or whatever, some even use aluminum because of the friction coefficient.

I bet a buddy I could drill a hole in a HSS (65 HRC) blank with a carbide cement drill, sharpened like only
a toolmaker can do. He LOST!

That still does not change the fact that I can put as many holes as I want in 5/8" plate with 7.62 X 54 R.
Same with the 6MM mentioned above and to many 7MM and other .30 calibers to count.

Recon I'm missing your point. We talk funny down here but we know our guns.

pintler said:

Isn't it kind of odd, then, that people making armor usually harden it, from pre-WWI to today??

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take another look at post 35. That is military, 1/4 " armor plate for a Humvee door panel. It isn't that hard. A file cut it fairly easily

Varminterror said:

Ok - so how about not being dismissive and explain your way around Wally's video posted above, quoted here?

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Read post #45 !!

Big7 said:

Maybe you are being facetious? I don't know.
I have diamond files that will cut a "regular" file in half with a few strokes.
So, what exactly is your point.

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I'm having trouble understanding YOUR point. My point was easy to understand, I thought. That armor plate was FAIRLY easily bit into with a common mill file, demonstrating that it wasn't all that hard. It did take a little effort, but not all that much. I was trying to AGREE with your assertion, which I believe true, that softer steels can be harder to penetrate with a bullet, that hard ones.

Big7 said:

That still does not change the fact that I can put as many holes as I want in 5/8" plate with 7.62 X 54 R.
Same with the 6MM mentioned above and to many 7MM and other .30 calibers to count.

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I'm sure you will, but you won't even put a dent in my armor plate with any 7.62 X 54 R unless it is AP. The others might if the velocity was high enough. A 22-250 goes right through. Anyway, I fail to see what this has to do with ricochets.