if you worked at a gun shop-loonys.

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Axis II

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I'm curious for those who work in the gun industry if its legal to not sell a gun to someone who acts and looks like they are a loon? I was in a larger mom and pop shop yesterday and 1 adult and 2 late teenage guys walk up to the gun counter and the older guy maybe about 40yo basicly pushed everyone out of the way and yells to the counter guy "hey is that an AR 223 or a 22? It was loud enough to catch my attention over 25ft away. He tells the guy he wants the cheapest one and is really loud. he then grabs it pointing it all over the place and hands it to the young guy and says "here dude you like that **** or you want a shotgun with pistol grip"? the kid doesn't even shoulder the AR and says he likes it but wants to see a shotgun. Meanwhile the dad is being loud and cursing and just acting like a loon.

About 15min later I hear him say "hey man let me get one of those AR's its his first gun" again I'm several aisles away and he's laughing and saying "yeah you can shoot 556 out of it too, LOL! that's soo cool man"! then as I'm looking at a use pistol 20ft away the guy yells :cuss:... I messed up the street name! "hey man let me get another sheet"

we get to the register and he comes up behind me and says yeah, man I just got him an AR-15. I say yeah, he says "yeah its his first gun man"

First off isn't it illegal to buy and do the form for anyone other than yourself?

is it illegal to deny someone a gun because you think they aren't all there? when I walked by after he did the form the counter guys were talking about another shop denying someone stating federal law and they brought up the AR so I'm assuming it was him and some other shop told them take a hike.

I took it the guy was doped up on something just how hyper he was acting and the way he was talking but they let him walk out with an AR 15 with his kids that look like they worship the devil.

Okay, rant over!
 
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Sounds like he was drunk or just a rectal orifice. Also sounds like the shop keepers knew the guy. Loud and obnoxious isn't illegal(The Donald would have been arrested years ago it were.). And "about 40" isn't old! snicker.
"...kids that look like they worship the devil..." That's not illegal either. snicker.
There was a guy who came into the shop I worked in years ago you would have sworn had escaped from a padded room somewhere. Guy had a huge collection of Carcano's. And never shot any of 'em. Pure collector. No idea why it was Carcano's.
 
Pretty scary but I'd like to think if the guy went far enough in life to not be convicted of a felony and has surviving kids maybe he's all bark and no bite. Hopefully. Sometimes I think people get nervous and act stupid. I've seen a guy hanging out in a gun store insist on showing all the other customers his loaded .22 mag s w revolver he was packing in his pocket upholstered. Not in a threatening way, just saying how he likes it. I've also seen the loud mouth lady who insisted on talking loudly about her dislikes and likes of certain firearm choices for her impending cpl. Like the whole store care or agrees. But I agree some people need to work on their obnoxious personality quirks.
 
Sunray said:
Sounds like he was drunk or just a rectal orifice. Also sounds like the shop keepers knew the guy. Loud and obnoxious isn't illegal(The Donald would have been arrested years ago it were.). And "about 40" isn't old! snicker.
"...kids that look like they worship the devil..." That's not illegal either. snicker.
There was a guy who came into the shop I worked in years ago you would have sworn had escaped from a padded room somewhere. Guy had a huge collection of Carcano's. And never shot any of 'em. Pure collector. No idea why it was Carcano's.
Click to expand...
I know the way they looked or acted isn't illegal but I was just wondering how much of a crap storm it would have made if they said sorry not selling this to you. This guy definitely acted like he needed to be in a padded room and looked like it also. I told my buddy first thought with a kid that looked like that and wanted tactical weapons like the AR and the shotgun was Columbine or too much call of duty video games.
 
Most gun stores would probably lose half their business if they refused to sell to a loud or obnoxious customer. One of the main reasons I frequent the gun shop I do is the customers and employees are much more low key. I have been to louder libraries than this gun store. But yes gun clerks are allowed to refusal a sale for any reason. I have seen it happen on the rare occasion if the customer was new to firearms and was trying to get something cool looking to shoot because he saw it in a movie or something. Or was being the south end of a north bound cow to the staff or other customers.
 
This is one of those very tough calls. If they guy is acting like a loon, if I were a gun shop owner I'd assume it was an anti plant to make use look like irresponsible sellers. OTOH if he could pass the 4473 required background check I'd be facing all kinds of potential discrimination lawsuits if I refused to sell to him!

I don't see a good answer here. My buddy wants me to open a "store with-in a store" to sell guns at his business as a source of side income (it'd mostly be Internet transfers), and this is one of the main reasons I've so far resisted, although the idea does have a certain appeal.
 
I guess I might just look for the bad. there were a few red flags thrown up at me.

guy looked like he belonged in an asylum but I know great people like that.

kid acted like he had never touched a gun in his life by the way he acted when dad handed it to him to look at and dad clearly had no idea what he was doing either and your buying a tactical weapon and clearly asked for the most tactical/assault weapons in the store for your kids first gun. id guess he was 16yo at the oldest. kid had the I stay in the basement and play video games look, dressed in all black with long hair and chains,

the dad being loud like hey, look at me guys and he kept laughing like he was having a good time joking with everyone. then when he started cursing out loud cause he messed up the street name. how the heck do you not know how to spell your own street? very hyper acting but the kids acted like if they moved they would pass out.

Imo ATF needs a button number you press to hold up the BC when you get goofballs trying to buy guns. I hate to say it but the first thing popped into my head when I seen the way the kids were acting and them specifically asking for an at or pistol grip shotgun was not good at all if you get my drift. I almost got a 2nd job in a gun shop but I don't have the patience for the hey lets go play with guns crap. I got onto a kid at a gander mountain one day picking up the shotguns and racking the pump several times and then dad came over like he was going to say something. if your 16-17yo you know guns aren't a toy so just don't touch them let alone screw around with it.
 
We were told if we have a feeling we shouldn't sell, like if the person seems unstable, drunk/high, possibly trying to make a straw purchase....anything. Don't sell. It's not worth the risk. We then had a system linking to all the other stores to basically blacklist them, assuming we had their name from their ID.
 
There is no law that says that a dealer (or any seller, for that matter) must sell a gun to any prospective buyer who can pass the Form 4473 NICS check. It's strictly at the discretion of the seller. Based on the description of events in the OP, if I was that dealer, I would not only have refused to sell the guy a gun, but I would have asked him to leave the store and not come back until he had sobered up and could behave himself. But I understand that sometimes our desire for profit can cloud our judgement. On the other hand, think of this -- if you sell a gun to an obviously impaired person, and he then misuses that gun, you may have to deal with some legal liability.
 
every gun shop and gun show ive ever been in has that guy, and many other dangerous and stupid knuckleheads waving guns around inside. then the gun store barflies. who get in the way telling dumb stories, spreading misinformation and distracting the folks working while buying nothing.

its no wonder the gun grabbers dont trust folks to own guns. if they spent a day or two sitting and watching in any gunstore they be even more horrified than they already are.

the irony is these same folks im complaining about have no idea how dumb, dangerous and annoying they are.

all that said i still support the right for even dumb folks to own firearms and ill take the dangers of freedom over the safety of slavery.
 
ATF instructions are very clear. If a dealer has any doubts about the buyer, he can (and should) refuse a sale. He is not obligated to sell to a person who raises blatant red flags. heck, the buyer could be an ATF plant. I was present at a gun dealer in TN when two guys with GI haircuts claiming to be from VA started talking about doing a violation of Tn-Va-ATF agreements on interstate transfers; the dealer refused the sale and started to call the ATF hot line and they left.
 
I've been working in a new gunstore for about a month now, and I've asked many of the questions posted above. I was told by the owners that they would back us 100% if we decided to refuse a sale. I was close once, but it didn't get that far.
 
The staff at my LGS/range just have a presence that would send someone like that right back out the door. They are friendly etc but in the manner of the proverbial iron hand in the velvet glove.
 
Carl N. Brown said:
ATF instructions are very clear. If a dealer has any doubts about the buyer, he can (and should) refuse a sale. He is not obligated to sell to a person who raises blatant red flags. heck, the buyer could be an ATF plant. I was present at a gun dealer in TN when two guys with GI haircuts claiming to be from VA started talking about doing a violation of Tn-Va-ATF agreements on interstate transfers; the dealer refused the sale and started to call the ATF hot line and they left.
Click to expand...

Hey Carl - Please post a link or citation that backs up the claim in your post.

I just spent an hour going through the BATFE website Firearms Section, as well as reading through their "Federal Firearms Licensee Quick Reference and Best Practices Guide" looking for those ATF instructions and was unable to find them. I thought I remembered seeing that in print but was unable to locate it directly.

Thanks
 
Bad behavior at a gun shop? Say it ain't so!

I won't patronize shops who serve that type or are that type themselves, so maybe one shop of ten is someplace I'd spend money.

Last thing I want to do is spend money on something and be annoyed while I do it.

I'd refuse to transfer a gun to that guy any day of the week.
 
Ignition Override said:
Sunray:

You might already remember that a Carcano was the type which Lee Harvey Oswald owned.
That could make the type interesting to many people.
Click to expand...

And Oswald got his Mannlicher-Carcano mail order, not in person at a local gun shop.

No law against selling firearms to asshats who behave badly in public. Slippery slope if we decide to start using opinions on personality to dictate who we do business with ... (Wal-Mart might go broke).
 
Looking scary isn't a crime. Being obnoxious isn't a crime. Speaking at high volume isn't a crime. A parent buying a gun for their child as a gift, even if its a "scary" looking ar-15 or pistol grip shotgun is again, not a crime. Buying a gun without any knowledge of firearms too, is not a crime. AS has been said, an ffl can refuse a sale for whatever reason, but as far as the guy doing anything illegal, I don't see it. I presonally wouldn't want my 2nd Amendment rights infringed upon simply because someone took issue with my appearance or offense to my behavior. If I'm doing something illegal or dangerous, by all means, do what you need to do, but if I'm simply talking louddr than you feel comfortable with, and my kid has a t-shirt on that you take offense to for whatever reason....maybe you think its devil worship stuff.....Thats no reaason to to deny them their rights.
 
I get that from people buying auto parts. I've seen that on a used car lot. And I definitely have seen that from people who own motorcycles, drive earth moving equipment, and show up at gun ranges.

I can't tell you the number of people who act like that in malls, movie theaters, or on public beaches during holidays.

I suspect someone never worked retail or gets out among the public.

I question the intent on embellishing a story about purchasing firearms, when it's rather obvious he drove a car to get there.Think about that - he lives on Planet Earth, as do a LOT of others just like him, and being just being loud then draws public conclusions about his sanity and which God his children might worship?

I'd say he's acting no different than the average "football parent" at a high school game.

We aren't all quiet little mice. And not all of us behave in a way that requires someone's approval.
 
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