Flat Point Bullet Question

I’ve heard people say that jacketed flat point bullets will create a much larger wound cavity than FMJ round nose. That sounds reasonable but has anyone had any real experience with them regarding terminal performance? Has anyone tested a round nose and flat nose side by side in ballistics gel or similar medium?
I’m asking because I am trying to find a good non-expanding bullet for field carry in case I encounter a dangerous animal when I’m out and about.

I was considering some of the solid copper bullets like the Lehigh Defense line but after examining the bearing surface of these bullets, I think accuracy may be questionable. Our local national forest is still closed to shooting due to fire danger so I can’t test the rounds I‘ve loaded with Lehigh bullets yet.
My intended use is in .357 Sig or possibly a hot 9MM load. I don’t want to use lead SWC and would prefer to use a jacketed, plated or solid copper projectile. I’m not interested in 10MM. I have some nice 1911s and also have .40 barrels for my Sigs but would rather find a good non-expanding bullet in .355 or .356 dia.

Around here I’m more likely to encounter a dangerous 4 legged critter than a 2 legged one so let’s not go there. Anything that will work on a bear or big cat will work fine on humans. Any suggestions?

Interesting article. Thanks for your help.

"You plan on defending yourself from a Black Bear or Mt Lion with a 357 Sig.?
Good luck with that."

Thanks for the mockery. It was very helpful. I was afraid I might not get any input from east coast armchair know-it-alls.

I appreciate the responses, guys but I think we may be getting slightly off track here. I don’t plan to hunt with .357 Sig, but that’s what I carry now. I realize it isn’t the perfect sidearm for all situations but that’s what I carry now. I carried a 1911 and a 629 for over 40 yr but I really don’t want to carry anything as cumbersome as an N frame these days and the Sig round is flatter shooting and penetrates better than a .45 ACP. I’ve decided my P229 and P226 in .357 Sig suit me best these days. I don’t plan to carry anything else at this point.

I’m trying to find the best non-expanding bullet for use against an animal if that need arises. I’m not sure a hollow point is such a good idea because I think penetration might be more important. I feel a FMJ round nose is pretty worthless except for plinking and I am trying to determine if a flat point would make that much difference. If not, then I may stick with my XTP and Gold Dot HP’s. I’m also strongly considering the fluid transfer type of bullet like the Lehigh Defense line and have some loaded up. Their website videos are pretty impressive.

https://www.lehighdefense.com/pages/xtreme-penetrator

If the Lehigh bullets are all they are hyped up to be, I’ll probably go with them provided I can get decent accuracy with them. I have no experience with flat point bullets though so I’m curious about them. My sense is that the flat points aren’t too much better than ball ammo but I guess you never know. That’s why I was trying to find someone with real experience using flat points. I would REALLY like to hear from someone who has used the Lehigh type bullets in real life as well.
In any case, the Forest Service should be reopening our national forest to shooting any day now and I’ll be able to test some of the rounds I loaded using the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator and Xtreme Defense bullets. If they work as well as they claim, I may have found my answer. I’ll let you guys know what I discover. Thanks again for all your help.

Message to Ants:

Thanks for your kind offer, Ants. I truly appreciate your kindness and your concern. I’ll send you a PM.

I’ve only found two bullets so far that will stay together in the Sig round, the XTP and the Gold Dot bullets. Every other bullet I’ve tried in this cartridge either fragments, sheds the jacket or otherwise disintegrates. That includes Sierra, Zero, Montana Gold and every plated bullet I’ve tried. The Sig round needs a bonded bullet. Some guys are claiming the RMR in-house 124 gr JHP is suitable for .357 Sig but I haven’t had a chance to test them yet. I have some loaded up but haven’t been able to test them yet.

I agree with your assessment of the cone shaped bullets. I get my best accuracy with that shape in both the Sig round and in 9MM. I haven’t had any trouble fitting other bullet shapes into the chambers of my Sigs but I did have to use Bullseye and Power Pistol instead of AA#9 in order to seat the 124 gr all copper bullets deeply enough due their longer profile.
I just got some of the cone shaped RMR 124 gr in-house flat points in and they look promising but I haven’t been able to test them yet. If you’d like, I’ll be happy to send you some to try. We can exchange info by PM.
I also agree with frequent practicing. I’m lucky to be surrounded by national forest here so it’s a simple matter to find a place to practice (usually) so I try to get out as often as I can.

Seems like every time I mention using the .357 Sig, somebody tries to talk me out of using it. I have never understood why it gets such a bad rap but I suspect some are turned off by the price of factory ammo. Perhaps it’s the limited selection of bullet weights/styles in factory ammo as well. I suspect most of the criticism comes from those who have never used it. Frankly, I think it’s an impressive cartridge. I liked it the first time I used it and the more I use it, the better I like it.

ATLDave said:

For some people, being able to buy ammo over the counter at literally any store that sells ammunition is a big deal.

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Yep, that's why I started reloading. I got tired of not being able to find what I wanted, especially when I shot a lot of .357 mag and .44 mag. Finding factory ammo that wasn't loaded to the max was almost impossible.These days I can make whatever I want and I've become rather spoiled.

Rule3 said:

We have Black Bears bigger than those in Arizona. We also Have Panthers (AKA Mt Lions)

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Yes, I know how large some of the Florida bears are. I lived in the panhandle (FT Walton Beach) for five years and used to see bears in the forest between FWB and Crestview and also in the forest on Jackson Guard. They are smaller here but numerous. They also trap some of the bears that annoy the campers in the Santa Catalina Mountains and relocate them here. I lost a good dog to one about ten years ago.

I agree that if a lion wanted you, you would probably never see it coming. I’ve seen them run and they can jump incredible distances. Heck, deer are their main food source here. I really don’t expect to be able to offer much resistance to a determined lion. Also, the tree huggers sued the Game & Fish dept a while back and made them stop trapping lions so they are no longer controlled and are becoming bolder like the ones in California.
The Game and Fish says they saw another Jaguar in the mountains here this year a few miles from my home. I don’t know much about them but I would suspect they are equally bad ass, maybe worse. They come up from Mexico occasionally along with the Mexican Grey Wolves. I’ve never seen a Jaguar here but I have seen grey wolves on several occasions.

This used to be one of the last unspoiled areas in Arizona before we started getting so much traffic across the border.
The reason I like this area is because I never know what I’ll see in the national forest. I enjoy that excitement and spend a lot of time in the forest.

In any case, this thread was intended to discuss bullet styles rather than hunting. It’s not likely that I’ll ever have to shoot an animal in defense but you never know. I have had to shoot rabid skunks and coyotes on occasion.

Thanks for the link to the G2 bullets. They appear to be similar to the Lehigh Defense bullets which I will probably end up carrying except the Lehigh bullets aren’t designed to fragment.

ants said:

Bottom Gun, have you tried round nose in your 226 & 229? They don't fit my guns. By the time I seat deeply enough to avoid hitting the lands, they are so deep in the neck that the case mouth is exposed.

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I used the Zero 115 and 124 gr JHP and the RMR JHP in the Sig. They have sort of a round nose configuration. I’ve not tried regular FMJ round nose though. I never use FMJ round nose. I would rather pay the few extra cents and load hollow points because even if it’s a bullet that fragments, it can still be used to blow up a water jug or to shoot something in an emergency. There’s nothing more frustrating than a bullet that drills through something like an ice pick. That’s one reason why I started this thread. I like the looks of the RMR flat points and was hoping they would give better performance than round nose.

I like the cone shaped bullets because that shape gives me the best accuracy in this Sig round and especially in my 9mm pistols. I’ve not had an issue with bullets extending into the barrel lands.

I don’t think it’s a big problem if your case mouth extends a bit past the ogive tangent point though since it’s a bottleneck case. Heck you can usually cycle a magazine of empty brass through most Sigs.
Also, I’ve seated bullets out past the 1.14 overall length without problems. An extra .010 or .020 doesn’t make any difference in my guns even though I have Barsto barrels in two of my P229’s and one of my P239's. I guess bullet profile would be the determining factor.
I don’t have any bullet retention or setback issues but I never bell the case mouths or crimp due to the short neck. I put a light chamfer on the case mouth instead.

AA#9 is my powder of choice for the Sig round but I have had good luck with Bullseye too. I had to use Bullseye with 90 gr bullets to get a complete powder burn. 115 gr or heavier bullets work fine with AA#9 but I was getting incomplete combustion with the 90 gr when using AA#9. I recently had to use Power Pistol with some of the Lehigh bullets due to their length but have yet to test them. I’ve not used Power Pistol in the Sig round yet so the jury is still out on that. I haven’t had much luck with Power Pistol in 9MM. Bullseye and Win 231 work much better for me in 9MM.
I’ve tried some max loads in my Lyman book in the Sig round but was getting flattened primers so I backed off a bit. With AA#9 powder, I’ve been using 13.2 gr for 115 gr bullets and 12.2 gr with 124/125 gr with no signs of high pressure.