hacker defeats $1500 "smart gun" with $15 of magnets

Guns valued for protecting or feeding one's family are usually picked for factors like relability, simplicity, and ease of use and maintenance.
This sounds to me like adding electronics to a mechanical device would lessen relability and ease of use and would complicate maintenance.
How do the smart gun electronics hold up to years of shooting and exposure to Hoppes#9, gun oil, WD40, aerosol cleaners?

Why am I reminded of the hoopla about the Gyrojet, the Tround magazine-fed revolver, or the ballistic fingerprint database (abandoned recently by NY and MD)?

old lady new shooter said:

Yes, he showed multiple ways the "smart" gun is actually extremely stupid. But for my headline I went with the simplest one.

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I would hesitate a guess that most members of this board prefer dumb guns with smart owners.

I don't even own a smart phone. Why in the world would I buy a smart gun. I like to keep things simple.

What a bunch of crap. Look at the video at about 3:95. The hacker shows the mechanism. Anyone who does not worship technology would immediately realize that removing the ferris cylinder the magnet acts on would allow the pistol to operate without the friggen electronics. Instant dumb gun.

And like I've said before, as each "smart" gun comes out someone is going to bust it open and put instructions on defeating it on Youtube.

This is the case with all "smart" guns. They are electromechanical devices and at some point the electronics move a linkage to either block or allow the action to function. Anyone can get into the gun, put the mechanical linkage permanently in place to allow the gun to fire (or remove the linkage in this case).

I dunno whether the hacker is an idiot or he is just not interested in anything but the electronics, but the wheel he suggests as a fix for this linkage is also a no go. Just get into the gun and permanently set the wheel or other activated linkage in the position to fire.

I am interested in the 'Smart' gun technology, but not for the purposes intended in the article. If the mechanism that disables the fire control were to be linked to a camera in the scope, and then immediately disabled once a targeting algorithm with some pattern recognition capability determines that the round will hit its target, a lot of user error could be eliminated for long range shooting. I really think that something of this nature will be deployed by the military within the next decade. For multi-round bursts, the camera could trace the trajectory of the first round and then self-calibrate with servos that control the point of aim to a tiny fraction of MOA. By 2025, common cell phones will have enough processing power to make this happen, and the servos are available now, although they would probably need to be re-engineered to be more rugged.

"Smart" technology will be used to make firearms more effective, not less so.

TrickyDick said:

There's a reason that 99% of guns are still 100% mechanical in this digital age.

Remember the Remington EtronX rifle?

Nobody wants them.

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It went away because it was the answer to a question no one asked.

It did have one real advantage....lock time was basically nill....but really we are not talking about the difference between a modern "normal" primer fired rifle vs a match lock.

No one wanted one because why....it brought nothing really to the table.

The "smart" gun is being pushed by some as the answer to the question.....everything has to start somewhere.

If it was not for things like the Citicar we would not be where we are now with electric car tech.

Will it ever become wide spread....yea one day it will....but I doubt anyone on this forum will live to see it....I could be wrong however, by some comments I read on here they have to be written by 5yr olds.

TrickyDick said:

Cheaper to fix than EFI

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And electric starters can fail....better stick that hand crank back on your car....and those fool electric lights they burn out....go back to gas lights...solid rubber tires are better as well.....those new fangled air filled jobbies get leaks.

Heck even the great Sam Colt said no one would want those new fangled cartridge guns.....we are all blinded to this new fangled stuff.

Locks only keep honest people out.

fpgt72 said:

And electric starters can fail....better stick that hand crank back on your car....and those fool electric lights they burn out....go back to gas lights...solid rubber tires are better as well.....those new fangled air filled jobbies get leaks.

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How many own an electronic/biometric quick access handgun safe?

The anti-gun, smart gun technology crowd will certainly use that against the 2nd Amendment and pro gun crowd any chance they have and I can hear it now: "You already store your defensive handgun in a similar manner and that's acceptable to you."

Just wait, it's coming as soon as there is a 9mm or larger gun available with this technology. It will be one of their first arguments for the technology to be mandated on handguns.

Carl N. Brown wrote:
How do the smart gun electronics hold up to years of shooting and exposure to Hoppes#9, gun oil, WD40, aerosol cleaners?

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Since "smart gun" technology is still in the developmental stage there is obviously no body of data on actual experience to answer that question, but since those chemicals will be present in the environment of a "smart gun", designing the systems to not be adversely impacted by them will be part of the design criteria.

fpgt72 wrote:
...solid rubber tires are better as well...

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The current direction of a significant amount of research amongst tire manufacturers is for a solid rubber tire.

Remember the Remington EtronX rifle?

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It was a "fail" because it had to use special primers.

Around 31 years ago Krico made electronic firing rifles in both rimfire and centerfire that used regular ammunition. There were very few made and I wrote the original manufacturer https://krico.eu/historie/?language=en He told me they didn't make a lot of them and very few made it to the US and that Walther and Remington both looked into buying the technology but neither did.

I would still like one of the .22 LR versions.

Koolmoose wrote:
I would hesitate a guess that most members of this board prefer dumb guns with smart owners.

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I don't know that there is a preference related to the technology.

First, I'm not even sure where I would find a "smart gun" if I wanted to buy one. They certainly don't carry them at Academy or my LGS.

Second, I bought my last pistol (a Taurus PT-111) purely on basis of price. I am not aware of anyone selling a "smart gun" for $250.

As with any any new technology, it will start out as an "add on" to existing products that rely on existing technologies for their basic operation and as such it will be an expensive novelty. Once the designers and manufacturers integrate the "smart gun" technologies that show promise in the marketplace into "clean sheet" designs that are competitive with "dumb guns" in terms of reliability and price, then I think you will see whether or not the people on this forum (as well as the market, in general) have a preference one way or another.

Don't want to sound pessimistic, but that the way of future. Maybe not today, tomorrow or next week, but smart guns will be made.
Nobody can stop progress. Some one will come up with some invention we never heard or dream off. How knew about smart phones 20 years ago, who knew of computers 100 years, who knew of planes 200 years ago and so for.

Not directly related to ID guns, but to electrical firearms in general.

Gordon R. Dickson wrote of the Dorsai mercenaries, that any big city gangster was more heavily armed, but the "sliver rifle" could not be detected or foxed remotely.

jmorris said:

It was a "fail" because it had to use special primers.

Around 31 years ago Krico made electronic firing rifles in both rimfire and centerfire that used regular ammunition.
I would still like one of the .22 LR versions.

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ETRONX primers are available but you really have to want to shoot the rifle. They are $189 a thousand vs $29 for percussion LR.

The Kricotronic put a LOT of juice through a regular primer. The life of the electrode was somewhat limited. I think it would be smart to scrounge spares. There was a Voere electrically fired caseless rifle, not made for long at all.

Once upon a time Abercrombie & Fitch would sell you a Fusil Electrique, an electrically fired shotgun made in France.

Steyr has an air pistol with electric trigger, Walther has an electric trigger ISSF Rapid Fire pistol, and long ago there was the Green electric trigger available to fit Remington rifles and as a complete single shot free pistol.

John_R said:

He also found that someone can jam the signal to prevent you from defending yourself, which is more worrisome than the magnet hack.

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Bet the government would like that option. Jam all citizens guns when they feel their 'subjects' are becoming to uppity.

Deaf

Please correct me if wrong, but I believe the smart gun statute is still on the books in New Jersey. Basically it mandates only smart guns can be sold in the state once commercially viable smart guns exist for sale. So for the company which can make the first production models they will have an instant monopoly (albeit a fairly limited market). I don't recall anyone saying the gun had to be cheap or particularly good, only that it incorporated the smart tech and was available in the supply chain. If the law took effect and was implemented successfully, other states would certainly follow suit such as California. That's a pretty strong incentive for this manufacturer. It's also a reason for distributors and dealers to politely refuse to sell them.

I can't help but wonder how EMP-resistant such "smart guns" will be.

Technology is wonderful but we are far too reliant upon it. I love my iPhones and the ability to unlock my doors with Bluetooth. I can hardly browse Amazon without buying something that gets delivered to my front door within hours, but all that magical and wonderful technology is fragile. Forget some rogue dictator's use of nuclear weapons to cause a technology-crippling EMP event; a solar mass ejection could have worldwide effects never encountered in a technologically advanced era. The last time that happened was 1869. If something like that were to occur today there will be a far greater need for simple tools that work.

As much as I embrace technology I also value simplicity. I don't even like mechanical safeties. If and when such a "smart gun" becomes viable, propellants and projectiles are likely to have become outdated and superseded.

Chemistry Guy said:

I am interested in the 'Smart' gun technology, but not for the purposes intended in the article. If the mechanism that disables the fire control were to be linked to a camera in the scope, and then immediately disabled once a targeting algorithm with some pattern recognition capability determines that the round will hit its target, a lot of user error could be eliminated for long range shooting. I really think that something of this nature will be deployed by the military within the next decade. For multi-round bursts, the camera could trace the trajectory of the first round and then self-calibrate with servos that control the point of aim to a tiny fraction of MOA. By 2025, common cell phones will have enough processing power to make this happen, and the servos are available now, although they would probably need to be re-engineered to be more rugged.

"Smart" technology will be used to make firearms more effective, not less so.

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That technology already exists. It debuted five or six years ago. Cost has come down significantly from the original 25k. You can order up a brand spanking new fully integrated AR with it and night vision from trackingpoint for around $6000. Please write up a review here if you get one!

I think it's important to point out that unless it is a government funded clandestine cloak and dagger 1984 scheme, Smart technology is not necessarily evil.

Let me preface this before some start frothing: COULD it be used to squash our 2nd A rights? Sure. I think it's a bit premature to assume that and mildly tin-foily. But, yes, smart tech mandated by the government could have some sort of super secret ninja switch to flip a hot gun to "off". Furthermore, as long as their are gun enthusiasts, there will be a legal market for "old fashion" guns that fire "old tech" bullets. I don't see there being some sort of massive gun sweep where they round up our clunkers and hand us pistols that unlock like iPhones.

Should we be cautious? Of course. Should we automatically fear new technology? I think that's a bit foolish. 40 years ago, fuel injection was cutting edge tech, now we have cars and trucks that are not only more efficient and more powerful but more reliable as well. Parts that would break or go out of time in 40,000 miles now chunk along for 100K due to the fact that the machine monitors and adjusts them. I have a smart phone that I use to take pictures underwater. The military is putting auto-aiming technology on rovers that can put a .223 round through a .225 sized hole over and over and over at several hundred yards.

We rely on technology every single day in the most dire of straights beyond maybe dropping your pistol in a puddle. The sensors in your car keep it from accelerating to 120mph on accident. They also talk to the brakes to tell them to stop when you press on the peddle. We leave our house and our more stable and "concrete" landlines armed with nothing but a doohicky fabricated in China with total faith that it will make our calls, give us access to our email, and even tell us where we are going (how many of us keep an atlas in our cars in case we get turned around?) with no "what-if" backup plan if it fails.

I can understand keeping a gun simple. I'm not saying that all guns need to be pushed to some sort of 2.0 computerized version. I would stand against a government mandate to force all guns to be smart. I want there to be cap and ball revolvers being produced in 2150 along with all the classic designs that people can choose to freely buy.

I understand that when many talk about a "smart gun" they mean a gun that uses technology so that only the specified user can make it fire. However, I don't think it's prudent to let paranoia over this aspect stunt the potential for real technological growth. The private sector is doing a lot of cool things, and it's not like they just willingly hand over new tech to the government at the drop of a hat. Remember how Apple fought tooth and nail to retain the privacy of the iPhones that were used by the couple in the california shooting spree? They wouldn't unlock them even if it made total sense to do so. They feared that once they showed them how that the government could run with it and use it on everyone.

I would like to see where the technology goes. I certainly don't want to see it mandated, but while the 1911 is a brilliant design and Browning was a mechanical genius, I still want to see what we can come up with next...and this is coming from a guy with 9mm 1911 stuffed in his waistband as he types. To me, it's natural gun evolution: Single shot flintlocks to percussion revolvers to industrial age mass manufacturing auto loads to the polymer frame/modular revolution. The logical next step is a technological one, IMHO.

CZ-75BD said:

Don't want to sound pessimistic, but that the way of future. Maybe not today, tomorrow or next week, but smart guns will be made.
Nobody can stop progress. Some one will come up with some invention we never heard or dream off. How knew about smart phones 20 years ago, who knew of computers 100 years, who knew of planes 200 years ago and so for.

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I fail to see these as progress. The only real use they have is to prevent use by others is a short time frame--combat. If anyone wants to use them and is given 30 minutes to disable the control to make a dumb gun they can.

v35 said:

I can't help but wonder how EMP-resistant such "smart guns" will be.

Technology is wonderful but we are far too reliant upon it. I love my iPhones and the ability to unlock my doors with Bluetooth. I can hardly browse Amazon without buying something that gets delivered to my front door within hours, but all that magical and wonderful technology is fragile. Forget some rogue dictator's use of nuclear weapons to cause a technology-crippling EMP event; a solar mass ejection could have worldwide effects never encountered in a technologically advanced era. The last time that happened was 1869. If something like that were to occur today there will be a far greater need for simple tools that work.

As much as I embrace technology I also value simplicity. I don't even like mechanical safeties. If and when such a "smart gun" becomes viable, propellants and projectiles are likely to have become outdated and superseded.

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They are fully EMP resistant. Just remove the electronic control and render it a dumb gun.

illinoisburt said:

Please correct me if wrong, but I believe the smart gun statute is still on the books in New Jersey. Basically it mandates only smart guns can be sold in the state once commercially viable smart guns exist for sale

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That is essentially correct (edit: I can't make this site accept a clickable link so copy and paste: ftp://www.njleg.state.nj.us/20022003/A1000/700_S1.PDF. Insert a colon after ftp)

The law as it stands is rather toothless and has no practical effect (given restrictions already in effect in NJ, especially so), but it's a start, and that is the means by which progressives advance their agenda. Of course it obscures its purpose behind innocuous-sounding names, such as "personalized" and "childproof" handguns.

It could be 100 years before it's fully implemented, and by that time no one will know just how their rights were taken from them.

hdwhit said:

The current direction of a significant amount of research amongst tire manufacturers is for a solid rubber tire.

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Just like this don't ya think.

Trust me I am not a fan....but I do think it is coming

Once the credibility of the technology has been destroyed by practical demonstration of ease of defeating the mechanism the only real excuse for mandating is discrimination in firearms ownership based on affluence. Given the number of minority folk who fall into the "less affluent" class this move can be considered racist.