"Most accurate" again in IDPA... help me speed up

ATLDave said:

Sure.
I'm guessing there are basically no very good race car drivers who did not spin out a number of times as they learned how to go really fast.

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Even the King wrecked quite a bit winning all the races he won and winning those championships. Even going in a straight line, I'm pretty sure John Force wrecked some winning his 15 championships and zillion races!

And for basically the same reasons, I think the OP is going to have to "wreck" a few times on his way to getting faster. If he's got a really serious and big live-fire practice regimen with the ability to build actual stages himself, he may be able to do most of his wrecking in practice. For many shooters, though, they have to go through a phase of "putting the car into the wall" in matches for a bit. Most shooters would have a hard time getting where they want to go without ever passing though a phase where they were not even close to "most accurate."

My advice to the OP would be this: It's a game. Make a conscious decision that, for a period of some fixed time (X many matches or weeks) you're going to let 'er rip for a while. You're not even going to worry about overall results. You're going to make a good faith effort to get hits, but that's about it. Just look at raw time for a while. Your overall results will probably stink. So what? It's just a game, and you weren't winning anyway. Let go of the ego-protection of having "most accurate" as a consolation prize. After doing that a while, you can go back to trying hard to get good hits on everything... and some of the speed gains will stay with you.

ATLDave said:

So what? It's just a game, and you weren't winning anyway.

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exactly.

my best learning experiences where squadding with nothing but GM's.. Yeah I probably finished close to dead last but I learned more than I could ever have elsewhere. They sucked me into going way faster than my skills were capable of... Even years later I use stuff I learned those days.

Hokie_PhD said:

Actually to be fast in anything the first thing to do is develop as near perfect technique as possible. If you don't, you'll never be good.

In martial arts we learned techniques slow, then we learned to go as slow as possible. Then we worked on getting faster and faster, until we'd go as fast as possible, then we'd practice slow, medium and fast.

I mention this as the same applies here. The fine motor skills have to become automatic. If you have to think you'll never be really fast. Likewise, you have to learn to tense all of your body except for the part that's moving, then make sure that's as relaxed as possible to move it quickly.

So I'll argue just going fast will make you a fast sloppy shooter. To be a good fast shooter you have to practice like Cal Ripken said... practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. So find a good coach, learn how to practice properly and the results will come with work.

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It really depends on what point in his progress he is already. Since he is going to matches and winning most accurate, I assume his basic technique is sound, and he is just too slow. In that event, he needs to PRACTICE going FAST. Practicing over and over again at a slow pace is just going to make him good at going slow, which it sounds like he already is. Obviously if your fundamentals are going in the toilet at that speed you need to self correct, but you have to go fast in practice to learn to be fast in matches.

Get right up next to that target and learn to blast it. Then step back 1 yard and keep it up. Do everything with a timer, keep a log, etc.

Personally, when we were learning how to go fast, the USPSA classifiers were a big help. We set up a few of those and with the knowledge of what the 100% scores were, pushed ourselves to hit that pace. Once we were able to complete the drill (most of them take 3-8 seconds at most) in the correct time, we worked on doing it on time and with good hits. Learning what the REQUIRED pace was FIRST, and then pushing to meet that pace while maintaining an accuracy requirement is what got us both to GM fairly quickly.

I'll respectfully disagree on the specifics on how to get faster. Again, I didn't say that all of the training should be slow and medium. But I will say that based on my martial arts training that what I posted works. I"m not saying it's the only way. But I know it's highly effective if done right. And yes going as fast as he can is part of it. I just don't think it's all that he should be working on.

We aren't talking about martial arts though, we are talking about shooting. How fast is your shooting? The OP already said he is the most accurate guy at his matches, so if not speed, what else should he work on?

We're talking about body movement
Reread what I wrote I'm not disagreeing that he has to work on the fast part. But I'm suggesting that it's not all he should be doing. You disagree. That's your right.

I've taught many people to move much faster.
It has to do with so called muscle memory and learning how to relax muscles. If one is stiff and tight you can't be really fast. Most people tense up when trying to go fast. DONE RIGHT going slow one can relax and learn how it feels to be relaxed. Then when they go fast they can feel the difference, it's why I teach folks to go slow, go faster then go as fast as you can. You're missing that last part as you don't like the first part.

My shooting is still fairly new, and I'm doing what I've suggested to get faster. But it's not currently my top priority as unlike the OP I'm not happy with some of my technique. So your personal attack here is irrelevant. What I'm suggesting works in any sport not just martial arts. I've used it teaching baseball and racquetball also. Again it's a technique to become PHYSICALLY FASTER.

So I'm willing to bet if he follows your way he'll improve but will max out with improvement at some point, when he does, if he tries what I suggest he'll bust past it and be faster than your way getting closer to his physical speed limits.

waktasz said:

We aren't talking about martial arts though, we are talking about shooting. How fast is your shooting? The OP already said he is the most accurate guy at his matches, so if not speed, what else should he work on?

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If you don't see shooting as a martial art: 1) You don't know what martial art means 2) You are doing it wrong.

The martial arts are the arts of war and fighting. There are unarmed martial arts (what you may be thinking of) and armed martial arts (fencing, shooting, etc.)

Hokie_PhD said:

I'll respectfully disagree on the specifics on how to get faster. Again, I didn't say that all of the training should be slow and medium. But I will say that based on my martial arts training that what I posted works. I"m not saying it's the only way. But I know it's highly effective if done right. And yes going as fast as he can is part of it. I just don't think it's all that he should be working on.

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I also have years of martial arts and rank. When I started TKD my progress was slow, slower than the others around me. But after a couple of years my abilities surpassed some of those who smoked me in the beginning. My skills came to me from practice, a lot of practice.

I started action pistol shooting about 5 years ago. I am by no means good at this. My first two years were spent trying to figure out what exactly I wanted out of handgun competitions. I'm now into my 3rd year of steel and feel that this is my home for now. I can and do a little bit of IDPA and USPSA and even ICORE but steel is it for me.

My first year of steel in revolver was horrible. Second year was an improvement, better gear and more determination. But, my New Years 2017 resolution was to dry fire and I have stuck to this. Timer with par settings and I do it every day (almost). I'm not close to winning matches but I'm starting to out-perform shooters that last year I thought I could never beat. I'm shooting a double action revolver from a holster. I'm starting to shoot 4.5 seconds on 5 targets on a regular basis. In my last 8 matches I haven't done a single on-the-clock reload with my 8 shot revolver.

When I shoot a sub 4 second score it is almost if not always a situation where I'm not stopping to carefully aim but rather almost by instinct I'm hitting the targets. This is a very strange feeling for me as I come to this from a small bore rifle background where every shot is well planned. Some shooters have a natural ability but anyone can excel if they put in the time and by that you must do effective dryfire exercises at least 5 or 6 days/week. You do them even when you don't feel like it. Even 10 minutes a day will improve your scores a lot. Others have mentioned specific books and everyone I know that does well and is honest has these books and follows them.

And this is why Hokie we have this constant battle in the reloading sub-forum regarding progressive presses. If you are like me, an individual that works 10 hour days at my for real pay job but want to be a good handgun competitor you not only have to dry fire but you also have to live fire. This requires a lot of ammo, since Jan 1 I have burned through 6000+ rounds and I'm way behind my intended plan. I need lots of ammo quick so that excludes anything but a progressive reloading press.

For some there is another problem because some ranges will not allow you to practice steel or action pistol type shooting. I'm lucky, I have and belong to a private club 25 miles from home that is home to a very good crowd and a few standout shooters. I can set up and practice any kind of scenario I want. It's work but it's worth it. None of it comes to me I have to chase it.

No matter how well you plan it and no matter how good you are at hitting paper targets from a stationary firing line you will get smoked at your first match. Everyone who wins a match first lost a whole bunch of them.

Berger.Fan222 said:

If you don't see shooting as a martial art: 1) You don't know what martial art means 2) You are doing it wrong.

The martial arts are the arts of war and fighting. There are unarmed martial arts (what you may be thinking of) and armed martial arts (fencing, shooting, etc.)

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Yep. Doing it wrong. Competitive pistol shooting is a sport. I don't train shooting in order to shoot people.

waktasz said:

Yep. Doing it wrong. Competitive pistol shooting is a sport. I don't train shooting in order to shoot people.

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And I truly hope and pray neither of us ever have to. But I don't fantasize that the RKBA is not about a martial art.

IT IS.

When I said we aren't talking about martial arts, we are talking about shooting, what I meant was we aren't talking about hand to hand fighting. The skills are different. That's all. Go away.

waktasz said:

When I said we aren't talking about martial arts, we are talking about shooting, what I meant was we aren't talking about hand to hand fighting. The skills are different. That's all. Go away.

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Some of the physical skills are different, but a lot of the mindset and focus issues are common across all martial arts. A close family member was captured and interrogated by an officer with an underpowered pistol while serving in Vietnam. He broke the officer's neck and escaped, because he guessed right that the underpowered pistol would not penetrate his flak jacket. When the balloon goes up, there are no longer the neat divisions between hand to hand fighting and armed fighting that we pretend there are in times of peace and prosperity, or when we have the luxury to send others to fight on our behalf.

Things are a lot different at bad breath distances.

I think you took a wrong turn at the gunfighting tactics forum

waktasz said:

I think you took a wrong turn at the gunfighting tactics forum

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Maybe I realize what IDPA is intended to be:

The International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) is the governing body of a shooting sport that simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters.

Berger.Fan222 said:

Maybe I realize what IDPA is intended to be:

The International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) is the governing body of a shooting sport that simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters.

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The owner, with the approving nod of the BODs can say anything they want that doesn't make it true.

Berger.Fan222 said:

Maybe I realize what IDPA is intended to be:

The International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) is the governing body of a shooting sport that simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters.

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Jesus man. This is the competition forum and I'm giving competition oriented advice...but what do I know, I just shoot cardboard.

I don't think the people who started IDPA thought of it that way.

Ummm... back to our regularly scheduled program?

As a longtime (but very very sporadic and out of practice) bullseye shooter that just shot his first USPSA match last week, I'm also "too slow but (too) accurate" (in the match only 25% had more A hits than me, and half of them were carbine shooters) and thankful for all the ideas here.

I'm taking away four things:
-The "trust your subconscious" firing; it's about just keeping it in the vicinity of the black, not touching the X-ring.
-Practicing fast second shots, I was generally aiming both.
-Practicing non-firing: draws, reloads, reloads-with-moving, and arrive/acquire/triggerpull.
-"Go too fast," to get a better idea of where the boundary actually is, so you can get closer to it.

I do have to say, listening to folks thrown by the "Area Five Standards" qualifier stage (50yds two-hand, 25yds strong hand, 15yds weak hand) was pretty fun... until I realized my usual bullseye aiming speed was about as bad as missing quickly...

Congrats on your first match, Igloodude. I think your take-away list is a good one.

Target shooters often seem to have a tough transition to action shooting because they get caught up in a very narrow definition of "marksmanship" - that is, to hit the x-ring - and thus have a hard time doing anything they consider "lesser". Indeed, some bullseye pundits have even posited that USPSA/IDPA/ICORE requires no skill, since "they don't require aiming".

It might help them to realize that a broader definition of "marksmanship" is simply seeing what you need to hit, and hitting it when you need to hit it. I think we'd all agree the bullseye shooter who sees the x-ring and hits it with a slow deliberate shot is exhibiting excellent marksmanship. But the USPSA shooter who "sees" a B-zone shot, intentionally takes the shot, and hits it in 0.2 seconds (because it's faster than waiting for an A-zone hit), is exhibiting excellent marksmanship as well. Neither are easy skills to develop, and both take lots of practice.

Igloodude said:

Ummm... back to our regularly scheduled program?

As a longtime (but very very sporadic and out of practice) bullseye shooter that just shot his first USPSA match last week, I'm also "too slow but (too) accurate" (in the match only 25% had more A hits than me, and half of them were carbine shooters) and thankful for all the ideas here.

I'm taking away four things:
-The "trust your subconscious" firing; it's about just keeping it in the vicinity of the black, not touching the X-ring.
-Practicing fast second shots, I was generally aiming both.
-Practicing non-firing: draws, reloads, reloads-with-moving, and arrive/acquire/triggerpull.
-"Go too fast," to get a better idea of where the boundary actually is, so you can get closer to it.

I do have to say, listening to folks thrown by the "Area Five Standards" qualifier stage (50yds two-hand, 25yds strong hand, 15yds weak hand) was pretty fun... until I realized my usual bullseye aiming speed was about as bad as missing quickly...

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Improvement comes in steps. I recommend going into Practiscore and having a look at your hit factors: this is your points per second at each stage. Improving your hit factors to average above 2 is different from above 3, 4, and 5 points per second. You have to make gradual improvements by addressing the one or two things slowing you down the most.

For a beginner, I'd say a good goal in the next few matches is to be within a factor of two of the guys in your same division (gun type) with the highest hit factors. If you are shooting limited, select the option in the Practiscore results where you are only comparing with other guys shooting limited, etc. If the highest hit factor of someone shooting in your same division on a given stage is a 5.4, a beginner is not doing too badly if your hit factor is a 2.7 (5.4/2).

I'd also recommend picking one or two things at a time to focus on at a time. Beginners don't so as well trying to fix 5-10 different things they could do better after their first match. You have to prioritize.

Igloodude said:

Ummm... back to our regularly scheduled program?

As a longtime (but very very sporadic and out of practice) bullseye shooter that just shot his first USPSA match last week, I'm also "too slow but (too) accurate" (in the match only 25% had more A hits than me, and half of them were carbine shooters) and thankful for all the ideas here.

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The good news is that, with the possible exception of movers, you'll probably never see shots in USPSA that you think are genuinely, intrinsically "hard." The "hard" will always come from the circumstances - the time pressure, trying to do things from an awkward position, trying to take shots in the context of a complicated memory-stage plan, etc.

FWIW, I posted this a few months ago in response to another new shooter. Take it for what it's worth, it may not all be applicable to you: