A transfer only gun shop?

Isn't this what a kitchen table FFL does? Hundreds of them around me.

There used to be a lot of "kitchen table" FFL's, but the requirements to get and keep an FFL changed several years ago and it isn't really feasible anymore. You can't just get an FFL and sell a few when you want to. I don't know all of the details, but the regulation changes shut down almost all of them. For one thing you have to have regular posted business hours and many other requirements. You can't just meet people by appointment to make a sale of transfer. Pretty sure the costs to get an FFL will mean you have to sell more than a few in order to break even.

Fortunately there are several places locally that will do transfers for $5-$10. One firing range will do them for free if you use his range. Another guy's primary business is selling antiques. He has an FFL and keeps a few guns in the back, but does more transfers than anything else. But he already has a business that he goes to every day. He doesn't do it from home.

Generally, it's a good idea. Lots of FFL guys do that in my region.

Look up your local zoning laws to make sure you can conduct that kind of business at your location.
The FFL application you need won't be processed if you do not meet local qualifications to do business.
I know this may sound like stupid advice. It isn't.

I have a friend who did exactly that. He rented a small storefront, about 8x12 feet and started just doing transfers and special orders for people. He branched out and started buying good deals at gun shows and reselling them locally or through GunBroker. He's also made quite a bit of money reselling guns and related equipment that he purchased from estates.

jmr40 said:

There used to be a lot of "kitchen table" FFL's, but the requirements to get and keep an FFL changed several years ago and it isn't really feasible anymore.

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Oh good grief. The myth continues.
The only thing that changed was during the Clinton administration when ATF began enforcing laws and regulations that were already on the books. It wasn't "several years ago" but nearly twenty five.

You can't just get an FFL and sell a few when you want to.

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Sure you can.
While you cannot get an 01FFL for enhancing your personal collection, there is no required number of "sales" in any ATF regulation.

I don't know all of the details, but the regulation changes shut down almost all of them.

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There was no regulation change.....just that ATF began enforcement. Many dealers during the Clinton era were issued FFL's without much oversight from ATF. Those that were found to not be in compliance with local laws were given the opportunity to do so.....many chose to give up their FFL rather than get a sales tax permit, business license or abide by HOA and zoning restrictions.

For one thing you have to have regular posted business hours and many other requirements.

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Nonsense. Absolute and total nonsense.
No ATF regulation has EVER required that a licensee post their business hours. My city actually prohibits posting a sign outside a home based business.

You can't just meet people by appointment to make a sale of transfer.

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Again, nonsense. I do it six days a week.
Maybe you should read some ATF regulations before hitting Reply.

Pretty sure the costs to get an FFL will mean you have to sell more than a few in order to break even.

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Well, yeah. An 01FFL costs a whopping $200 for the first three years and a massive $90 for each three year renewal after that.

Fortunately there are several places locally that will do transfers for $5-$10. One firing range will do them for free if you use his range. Another guy's primary business is selling antiques. He has an FFL and keeps a few guns in the back, but does more transfers than anything else. But he already has a business that he goes to every day. He doesn't do it from home.

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I average 170 transfers a month from my home.......by appointment only.

It's an interesting concept. You would certainly save money on inventory and floor space, but then again wouldn't be making money on those items either. I guess what you have to figure out is if the potential loss of profits are justified by the low startup cost. Without any deep thinking whatsoever, my gut feeling is they would be.

You would have to get on the map, literally. Lots of different websites have FFL finders, and you would need to get yourself added to them. It's going to be essential, as well, that you're in a centralized area. If you're way out in the boondocks, your business will be significantly less. To make people choose you over someone else, your prices need to be competitive and your location needs to be easy to get to.

As far as mounting scopes and whatnot, you could get a gunsmith to work under you. You provide him with the space and let him do the work under your FFL, then you get a percentage of his business. It would just be a matter of whether the potential return was greater than the square footage he took up. You could have him do the work out of his own house, and you would simply provide the customers. AFAIK, that's legal. However, don't forget that your rep is riding on his work. I find most itinerant gunsmiths are glorified armorers at best, and most can't be trusted to even touch a customer's gun.

I would sell guns by special order, as well. There's just no reason not to. You don't have to invest in inventory or take up floor space doing that, so it's free money. I would also have smaller items in stock, like AR lowers and LPKs. You'll get tons of people ordering AR lowers, so no reason not to have the lower parts on a display rack at the counter. You also have to have a counter for the cash register and to fill out paper work, so that counter might as well be a display case, and that display case may as well be filled with something.

I've been wondering about the feasibility of being a firearms dealer that keeps no inventory, but only conducts transfers for customers who buy online.

In my area, most gun shops charge an extortionate transfer fee. $50 is the cheapest I've been able to find with $100+ being fairly common.

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In my area you would starve to death before you made $100 or more on a transfer. See Tom's signature.

$20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military, police, firefighters or schoolteachers)

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dogtown tom said:

The only thing that changed was during the Clinton administration when ATF began enforcing laws and regulations that were already on the books.

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The crackdown on kitchen table FFL's began before the Clinton administration, in the late 1980's. That's about the time I gave up my FFL. I could have continued it, but I decided it wasn't worth the bother.

Jason W wrote:
The implication being that it's perfectly cool for the well heeled to have access to guns directly or by proxy, but us filthy poors can't be trusted with a firearm.

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In other words, the industrial bourgeois don't trust the industrial proletariat to have guns? Interesting how the words now written by the self-described capitalist previously flowed from the pen of Karl Marx.

If you are retired or work another job from home, I think you could make a nice addition to your regular income. Since you would be sitting at home anyway any money is a plus. But I don't think you could run a full time business from home just doing transfers if that was your sole income. Generating enough customers to be able to earn a real income would require work as well. Would you just rely on being on the FFL list for sellers list Buds or would you advertise?

jmorris said:

In my area you would starve to death before you made $100 or more on a transfer. See Tom's signature.

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See the OP's location.......California.
There are state fees in addition to what the dealer charges.

AlexanderA said:

The crackdown on kitchen table FFL's began before the Clinton administration, in the late 1980's. That's about the time I gave up my FFL. I could have continued it, but I decided it wasn't worth the bother.

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Statistics don't back that up.
While I would never recommend FFL123 for anyone looking to get their FFL, he has compiled ATF statistical data on one webpage:
https://www.hoplofobia.info/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/History_of_FFL_License.pdf
Note the dramatic decrease in FFL's beginning in 1993, not the late 1980's.

There are federal laws regulating being in the business of dealing in firearms,
state laws regulating both being in business and dealing in firearms,
and local business regulations on businesses to boot.
As I understand the combination of state and local laws in TN/VA, being a gun dealer goes beyond the federal requirements for an FFL.
Sounds like California laws, rules and regs are pretty onerous, Texas not so restrictive.

The opening poster hails from California. I think comments from California FFLs would be more meaningful.

hdwhit said:

In other words, the political bourgeois don't trust the industrial proletariat to have guns?

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In K alifornia, I believe this is exactly how it is.


As a side note, I hope you and everyone 'here' in Texas escaped Mother Natures wrath.

Demi-human said:

Texas escaped Mother Natures wrath.

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That's something os a bone of contention. The current effected "triangle" is Corpus to Travis county to Brazoria--about 300 miles on a side (probably about to be expanded to include the seven metro Houston counties); a huge area. Call it 15-20 counties

However, there are 254 counties in Texas, quite a few of us are well celar of the weather.

Now, for perspective, the area around Houston suffereing flooding is about 2200 square miles--about the same area as Delaware.

But, back on topic, the CA requirements for FFL are pretty onerous. Transfers for $20 may not be enough. However, where the market might be in being $20 less than the competition. If you can get away (e.g. break even) with $75 or $80 transfers (since you are not running a storefront or paying for utilities and payroll and the like) you will be ahead of the competition.

The elephant in the room will be CA laws. You may not be freely able to just get stuff--there are a bunch of manufacturers and wholesalers who will not ship to CA just to skip the hassles. You may not be able to just freely distribute things within CA (see the approved pistol list and "featureless" banned arms, just for example).

With that all being said, a local, who knows the ins and outs, who is not trying to keep a brick-and-mortar open, making payroll, etc., might, just might, be lean enough to make some cash.

Which a rather major caveat that all of this makes predicting the market in CA will not be easy. The products are limited and the requirements manifold and increasing. Listen to Dogtown Tom--he knows what he is about. But, the federal side might be the easiest to get in CA.

Here in WA every transfer has to be through an FFL. I have a friend who does mostly that from home. I'm pretty sure he doesn't have regular hours, he isn't even home 3 months of the year. He doesn't do ammo sales because we can still have ammo shipped to our door step. Actually the nice UPS lady brings me the ammo but she makes me carry it.

I also know a young guy who just got his FFL. He leases a small space in a shop where he works part time. The shop used to sell guns but they only do ammo, reloading supplies and optics now. I talked to him about his business plan and he wants to do consignment and transfers. He plans on using an internet site and his shop space to sell the consignments. He really isn't too interested in new gun sales. This guy has worked in firearm sales awhile so he knows the ropes. He understands that the big dogs can undercut his new gun sales enough that it just isn't going to work for him.

So with the new CA law I would say your business model could be profitable. Of course you would have to be able to receive ammo shipments. Storing ammo for transfer and sale could require your county or city to sign off, who knows? Fire marshal might even have some say in that.

Anyway, if you do your homework I think the ATF is probably the least of your worries. I think most of those folks just push paper, like other federal agencies, these days.

What are the new CA laws about powder? Have they regulated that also?

Here is how AmmoFast deals with shipping to CA.

California No sales to the cities of Los Angeles, Oakland, Sacramento or San Francisco.

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dogtown tom said:

Note the dramatic decrease in FFL's beginning in 1993, not the late 1980's.

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There was a time lag, as 3-year term FFL's began to expire. The decline in FFL's was not because they were revoked, but that they failed to be renewed (voluntarily, in most cases). I saw the handwriting on the wall in about 1986.

AlexanderA said:

There was a time lag, as 3-year term FFL's began to expire. The decline in FFL's was not because they were revoked, but that they failed to be renewed (voluntarily, in most cases). I saw the handwriting on the wall in about 1986.

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Didn't read the article did ya?


Odd that you would mention 1986 as when you "saw the handwriting on the wall" as that was when FOPA was passed that made being an FFL significantly BETTER.

If you are a member of any kind of gun community or club, it's very likely people know local gunsmiths, folks working out of their homes, that have FFLs. Just need to ask around and we've found they are much more reasonable than commercial outlets.

So I wouldnt think it would be a good (primary) business.

dogtown tom said:

Odd that you would mention 1986 as when you "saw the handwriting on the wall" as that was when FOPA was passed that made being an FFL significantly BETTER.

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Hughes Amendment. I was an SOT at the time.

A number of my friends are/were police officers and many of them got an FFL so they could buy their personal firearms and related products at dealer prices. They also got guns for their friends who were all law=abiding people. These cops were members of the kitchen table FFL set. The license was cheap then and requirements much less stringent. After the law changed most of these guys gave up the license because it was too much of a nuisance to maintain. That was the intent of the law change to limit the number of FFLs and make it easier govt monitors to keep an eye on them.

Sniper66 said:

A number of my friends are/were police officers and many of them got an FFL so they could buy their personal firearms and related products at dealer prices.

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So they lied in their application? The application clearly says an FFL is NOT for enhancing ones personal collection, it is for those intending to engage in the business of dealing in firearms.

They also got guns for their friends who were all law=abiding people. These cops were members of the kitchen table FFL set. The license was cheap then and requirements much less stringent.

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No, the requirement were stringent, but the enforcement was nonexistent until Clinton took office.
As far as "the license was cheap then...".........it was $12 a year I believe. Now its a whopping $200 for the first three years and a whopping $90 for every three year renewal after that. If the difference in price is prohibitive then maybe they need to stop buying guns and get a second job. (or they could actually start being licensed gun dealers and earn $$$)

After the law changed most of these guys gave up the license because it was too much of a nuisance to maintain.

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"Nuisance"? The recordkeeping requirements under the Gun Control Act of 1968 have changed very little since then. If your friends weren't abiding by those requirements they shouldn't have applied in the first place.

That was the intent of the law change to limit the number of FFLs and make it easier govt monitors to keep an eye on them.

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Hogwash........the law DIDN'T CHANGE.