Anyone else find inarticulated opinions frustrating? (aka "beware the old guy lurking at the LGS")

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grampajack

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Does anyone else ever feel like there's a portion of the human population who form die hard, nearly religious opinions about guns, yet they cannot even begin to articulate why they hold to those opinions?

The below quotes are examples of various opinions I routinely see and hear expressed in magazines, on forums, at the LGS, at gunshows, etc. And they wouldn't bother me, except they're most often expressed by people who are longtime gun aficionados, who have been shooting for long enough to know better. People who are considered to be "experts" by their peers. Yet they constantly say things like:

"9mm is too underpowered."

".45 is the best cartridge ever devised by man."

"AR15s are unreliable."

"If 7 rounds of .45 ACP doesn't get the job done then you're screwed anyways."

"I hate plastic guns."

"You don't need sights on a carry pistol."

"The AK47 (or M14) is the most reliable battle rifle ever made."

And the list goes on...

What ALL of these people have in common, though, is that they spout these various nuggets of wisdom not only with supreme, God-like confidence in their own knowledge, but without any additional information, no qualifiers, no explanations-simply put, with no rationale whatsoever. And if asked why they hold these opinions, they simply look at you as if you had just asked them why the sky is blue.

I've come to realize over the years that these people have zero objective reasoning behind the opinions they form. They like 1911s just because; therefore Glocks are crap. They know nothing about ballistics and don't care to ever learn anything about it; therefore bigger is always better. They believe every myth they hear and don't care to ever do any historical research of their own; therefore AR15s are the most unreliable rifle ever made. So on and so forth, you get the idea.

So how do such people get to be firearms "experts?" And let's be honest, a good portion of people writing for the old gun mags fall into this category.

Is it simply that ignorant people are the most confident, and therefore everyone listens to them in blind faith? Is it that when they were younger there wasn't easy access to information, so they just formed their opinions without any real data? Do they possess such compelling personalities that people simply put up with their nonsense?
 
Concur.

Don't let those stupid truisms, myths, common beliefs, stereotypes, generalizations, slogans, platitude, cliches, banalities, stock phrases, axioms, chestnuts, old saws, bromides or aphorisms affect the way you think -- do your own research, draw educated and logical conclusions, forget these "nuggets of wisdom" -- they're neither nuggets nor wisdom, just bloviation and excrement.

And let's be honest, a good portion of people writing for the old gun mags fall into this category.
I kinda disagree here. Most of the good writers didn't fall for this crap.
 
I think it's people who were told something a long time ago and never bothered to explore beyond. As opposed to those of us on thehighroad, we are constantly building and questioning our own beliefs. I hear so many gun myths I had to quit being frustrated awhile ago. I hate most when people brag about therir guns scaring people or what they could do to somebody with their guns.

That being said, my least favorite that I actually hear adults mention every 2 or years is that a .22 won't even kill you.
 
I certainly do run into these people at the LGS and gun clubs and gun shows. Heck I even have a friend that falls into this category at times. Usually they have similar bits of wisdom on other non-firearm topics such as cars.

It doesn't frustrate me anymore. Don't let it bother you. I find plenty of others that I can have fact based conversations. I do notice people seek me out when they have questions or want an unbiased opinion.


Hey-
I like plastic guns and wood and steel. I really like them all. I appreciate a fine wood stock and a classic pistol. However I also have the tools I bring into the woods and the ones I carry daily.

Swanee
 
Theres a few that I work with. Im young and apparently dint know a thing because of that and get looked at like i have three heads when I come out with some info they never heard. They say where the hell did you hear that from/who told you that. I respond the high road..... you should check it out ,you can learn alot. They respond *** is a high road.:rofl:
 
People are entitled to their opinions. This doesn't pose a problem, as long as they are stated as opinions (as most of the examples in the OP are). The problem arises when opinions are misrepresented as facts. It's the antigun side that does this far more often than the pro-gun side.
 
yes, yes, and yes!! It drives me freaking crazy when people do that crap. Oh get you a 1911 if you want a real handgun, get an ak if you want a real rifle, get a Remington 700 if you want a real bolt action rifle. Oh, your handgun is made from plastic? its junk!

I will take a plastic handgun any day of the week over a steel one because its lighter, rust proof, better grips, etc. As far as the cant get it done with 7rds of 45acp. The 45 might have the kinetic energy on impact but any bullet will eliminate a threat. I find it funny when people say what if hes high on PCP? 45acp or 9mm hes still shot and still going to expire. its not like your hitting the guy with a howitzer.
 
The one "truism" I can remember hearing (at least back when I was a kid), was that you couldn't hit the side of a barn with a 1911. It kicked like a mule and felt like you were holding a brick in your hand. They rattled like crazy and were just terrible when it came to getting any sort of accuracy out of them. The only thing positive being said about the .45 was that it could knock a man down at practically any distance and once hit, they stayed down!

It wasn't until I shot my first 1911 that I found out for myself that all these things just weren't true. Sure there was some felt recoil but nothing you couldn't control and while some military 1911s from way back when may have become a little loose, newer commercial versions were for the most part well built and capable of decent accuracy.
 
Just go to an orienteering forum and see how they respond if you go around repeating Emerson's ,"The moss upon the forest bark. Was pole-star when the night was dark" malarky!

:)

Just remember when we have another thread about why manufacturers don't make an x, y, or z, that they sell MOST of their products to the comparatively uneducated masses. Think how frustrating it must be to try and come up with product that will appeal to buyers who don't even know what they don't know, but who do know a lot of things that aren't true.
 
That's a description of life.

Most people don't like to think or be challenged because it leads to change, and so it is safer and easier to latch on to some idea and hang on to it forever, regardless of how dumb it is or even if facts contradict it.

Honestly I am starting to dislike going to my LGS. There is always someone sitting there saying all kinds of stupid stuff. Worse yet is when they brag about their ignorance and say stupid stuff like "I was raised to believe X and so I believe X....."

Yeah, and when thunder rumbles the rain god is angry.
 
Inarticulate opinions presented as etched in stone truths are frustrating to me too.
I am willing to listen to opinions backed by fact or experience.
I have changed my opinions when I have convinced myself I was wrong.
BTW I have a plastic fantastic H&K USP and a steel and wood 1911A1 clone and shoot and like them both.
 
As mentioned, a lot of the LGS lurkers are "older" sportsman. Many no longer have opportunity or aren't able to hunt. I'd say many haven't actually gone shooting in a long time either. It's another example of the "arm-chair-expert-syndrome". But for many this is the only way they can still enjoy their love of the shooting sports. Same as the guys that hang out at Floyd's barber shop to BS & never get a haircut! I'd say take everything said with a grain of salt & give them a little latitude. Every now & then, a gem of wisdom may emerge or at least get you to thinking.

FWIW...
 
Absolutely Grampa.
However, those truisms go the other way (age wise) as well, especially on the web as opposed to the LGS.
I believe the term is 'mall ninja'?

I have seen a widening of divergent gun interests at shows for a number of years now.
Seems like 40% wood and blue steel, 40% black plastic, with only 20% of the crowd showing crossover interests.
Just about like our political divide I reckon.

JT
 
"If you're not a liberal at 20 you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at 40 you have no brain." Yeah, Churchill's quote transposes well. "If you're into walnut and steel at 20, you have no brain; If you're into plastic and parkerizing at 40, you have no heart."

I'm a few past 50, and into both. Heartless and brainless, I guess. ;)

While I have been known to opine here, and at the LGS, and on You Tube, I try to provide the reasoning behind it; I've learned from many on here, and I hope some of you have learned from me. The key is to be not so set in stone that you won't consider looking at something differently, as elegantly said by Bertrand Russell. (thanks for providing that quote, armarsh!)
 
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It's not so much that it bothers me, as much as it perplexes me. The gun world seems to be rather unique in this regard. I'm involved in quite a few other hobbies, and in general I find people pretty reasonable, in that they're at least somewhat objective and goal oriented. For example, in the computer technology world, you have a lot of debate over Windows vs. OS vs. Linux. But everyone has pretty specific reasons why they prefer one over the other, and basically everyone is willing to admit that all three have their uses. In fact, I would say that most computer nerds run all three, at least on virtual machines, and have their uses for each.

Fly fishing is another example. Now granted there's a lot of personal preference involved, but likewise there's a lot of science (or witchcraft, depending on how you look at it:D). Someone might be really dedicated to a certain fly rod, for example, but the reason might be that it's the only rod they can control enough to cast into tight spots without losing their $10 dry fly in the trees. And someone might be pretty dedicated to a certain fly or technique, but if they see the next guy down river catching tons of fish they NEVER say, "Hey, that's the wrong fly for this river!" They say, "Hey, Mac, what'cha got on there?" followed by, "You got any more of 'em?"

One thing I hear CONSTANTLY in the gun world is, "The only thing that matters is that you're confident in what you carry." This is something you don't find in other hobbies, as if carry (or home defense, hunting, and competition for that matter) was a hobby. No one says, "The only thing that matters is that you're confident in your computer." Or, "The only thing that matters is that you're confident in your fly." On the contrary! What matters is does your computer have enough muscle to run the program you're running, or does your fly catch fish. You can be confident in it all day long, but when the rubber meets the road they're objects and they either perform or don't.

Guns are no different. Perhaps a cycling analogy is in order. Just imagine if you're on a cross country ride and your buddy shows up with a mountain bike. "I'm confident in it," he says. Well, he can be confident all he wants, but he's going to slow everyone down, and that's a fact. Tools would be an even better analogy. Imagine watching someone trying to cut wood with a concrete saw, only to be informed his confidence in the saw is all that matters when you try to tell him he's doing it wrong.

Other hobbies, people also accept that some things are just outdated. For example, a person might collect old computers, but they're sure as heck not going to try to run a modern program on one. Or someone may collect vintage single speeds, but they're not going to try to take one on a cross country ride. And in other hobbies, I never hear people arbitrarily discount new things. If something gives them better performance they're on board.

No, guns are different. People form different emotional connections with them than they do other objects, and it mystifies me. People choose guns with a similar mindset to how they choose music, art, books, and movies. There most often is no rationale behind it. It amazes me, though, how they can take something that is so purely utilitarian and objective, something where there are right and wrong answers, and put it terms that should really only apply to subjective things like art. You can like a certain piece of art, you can love a book or movie, or likewise hate them, and no further rationale is needed.

But if you have a hard opinion about a gun, by jove you better have actual reasons for that opinion, especially if you're using the gun for something besides decorating your safe.
 
Ah, but grampajack, guns can be both tool and art. John T. Amber was a proponent of that, as Gun Digest always had a section on such guns. As for confidence, well, that should be underscored by plenty of familiarity and practice with said weapon. As for outdated, well, A Brown Bess wouldn't be my first choice for a SHTF gun, but it would be fun on a lazy Sunday afternoon at the range.
And some guns have pretty specific purposes. Competition guns of all types come to mind.
I have noticed a phenomenon amongst Millennials in which they defer their opinions to 'experts' in their fields. (not just guns, in everything) Hence James Yeager's popularity. (to tie in another concurrent thread.) Many millennials want to part of the 'gun scene', and see his vids and go "Wow, this guy knows his stuff!" Those of us who have BTDT since before Yeager was in diapers know him for what he is: A loudmouth who has some training, but little self-control. He bases his opinions on what has worked FOR HIM, and everything else is crap. I strive to be more open to all the vast spectrum of shooting has to offer, and have learned a lot; some things I don't like, but they work and are enjoyable for others, so who am I to tell them? And when someone get on here with a thread "Whats the best so-and-so?" I'll give them my opinion, but I'll never state "The <insert favorite gun/cartridge here> is the ONLY way!" (unless I put this behind it: :p )
 
They are everywhere. Even here. I know what works for me, and I have a bit of knowledge in general. I was lucky enough to have used about every light weapon and small arms extensively as a JOB. I was in Special Forces for over 20 years, so I worked with military personnel from all over the world (for better or worse), who all used different stuff- and often did this under combat conditions. I worked as a 18B (weapons) instructor for 3 years at Ft Bragg, and after I was injured overseas I did another instructor tour where I worked as an urban combat and sniper instructor, and participated in much of the R&D efforts for my unit.. In addition I had the opportunity to attend considerable advanced training- tactical/shooting courses, armorer courses, and instructor courses. I don't claim to know everything, cause everything is a lot. But, I daresay I think I know more than most people who preach in gun shops and gun shows. I just ignore them, and continue to use my ineffective, unreliable, and dangerous AR's and Glocks and continue to Forrest Gump my way through life.
 
That's the path I was starting on when the asthma I had as a kid came back with a vengance at Ft. Ord. 18B was what I had planned for my re-up. I was 76Y Unit Armorer, with an SMOS of 45B, Small Arms Repair.
 
There's a well known local gunstore and range here.

In addition to having a dangerously unsupervised range (they've had a number of suicides, and I've had loaded guns pointed at me), they allow their ne'er do well friends to hang out and drive away business.

I was in there once after having gotten off of work early. One of their sleazy pals was hanging around doing his Andrew "Dice" Clay thing.

I'm hardly what you call "politically correct", but I found him odious, obnoxious and distracting from the reason why I was there.

Between the fear of getting shot on their totally unsupervised range, and not wanting to hear the Stormfront website's greatest hits, I haven' been back there in going on ten years at a minimum.
 
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