If 38 states don't participate in NICS

Got a link to your '38' reference? I know even CA uses NICS, they just make you wait anyways.

Can anyone point to a single case where a criminal was unable to get a weapon due to background checks and other gun control nonsense?

I didn't think so.

Why are we even wanting something so terribly broken to be fixed?

Here is a link to a Washington Post article that mentions 38 stated, but it about mental health records.
These links might help.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...66c1b4-2ed8-11e4-be9e-60cc44c01e7f_story.html

http://gunwars.news21.com/2014/afte...s-spent-nics-fails-on-dangerous-mentally-ill/

Here are the Active Records in the NICS Indices, by source and prohibitor, as of December 31, 2016.

I'll go ahead and spoil the surprise: of 15.8 million records, 7.1 million are illegal aliens and 4.7 million are mental health.

gc70 said:

Here are the Active Records in the NICS Indices, by source and prohibitor, as of December 31, 2016.

I'll go ahead and spoil the surprise: of 15.8 million records, 7.1 million are illegal aliens and 4.7 million are mental health.

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According to a 2017 Univ of Georgia study, there are an estimated 19 million felons in America. It really does seem many records aren’t being sent to NICS.

warnerwh said:

I just learned about this and am surprised I haven't seen it discussed. The "fix NICS" crap the politicians just passed and were bragging about recently is absolutely meaningless. I knew some states didn't participate but just learned it's 38 states.

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EVERY state, territory and US possession is required to abide by the Brady Law. Whoever told you only 38 states "participate" doesn't know what they are talking about.
FBI NICS map here:https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/nics-participation-map.pdf/view

Some states serve as their own point of contact, others contact the FBI directly..........BUT ALL ARE REQUIRED TO COMPLY WITH THE BRADY LAW.

The states are protected by the 10th Amendment from being forced to participate by the feds.

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Wrong. Very wrong. The Commerce Clause allows it.
Again, the Brady law requires a background check.

No states send in the mental records to NICS.

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Wrong again.

As much as I hate gun laws I do think the NICS check should be 100% thorough. Why isn't this ever brought up in the media?

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It is brought up almost daily.

I was given this information from an old FFL/NFA holder I know.

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He doesn't know what he's talking about.

Wisco said:

According to a 2017 Univ of Georgia study, there are an estimated 19 million felons in America. It really does seem many records aren’t being sent to NICS.

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Some Felonies do not prevent gun ownership or gun permits in some states. In the state of Ohio If convicted of a Violent crime (including misdemeanor) such as assault or domestic violence , or any "felony" Drug possession, sale, Intent to sell will be denied right to own or possess a firearm under "disability" http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.13 . How many of those Felonies are not Violence or Drug convictions? So B&E (breaking and entering), Burglary, or Grand Theft Auto, Felony theft, Laundering for example are not "Violent" Felonies by themselves.

Wreck-n-Crew wrote:
Some Felonies do not prevent gun ownership or gun permits in some states.

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State law doesn't control.

Look at the ATF Form 4473, lines 11b and 11c. If you are 1) under indictment for a felony, or 2) convicted of a felony, then you are a "prohibited person" and a forearm cannot be transferred to you under federal law. See also 18 USC 922(g). Lines 11b and 11c also cover non-felony crimes for which the person could have been sentenced to prison for a year or more, but that's outside the scope of the original comment.

Someone convicted of a felony can petition the court to have their rights restored, but until that happens, a felon is a prohibited person.

Wreck-n-Crew said:

Some Felonies do not prevent gun ownership or gun permits in some states.

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Not according to federal law. The 4473 asks about felonies without regard to punishment imposed. Felon = prohibited.

State law is irrelevant to federal law in the case of guns, same as marijuana that states have legalized.

There is no way a felon without restoration of rights can legally buy a gun under federal law.

Actual Text of 18 USC 922 (g) :" (1)who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;"

Definition of person prohibited from possession by 18 USC 922 (g):
"crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year
(20)The term “crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year” does not include— (A)any Federal or State offenses pertaining to antitrust violations, unfair trade practices, restraints of trade, or other similar offenses relating to the regulation of business practices, or (B)any State offense classified by the laws of the State as a misdemeanor and punishable by a term of imprisonment of two years or less."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

Reason is that felonies are generally assumed to have a one year term or greater but in some states, some misdemeanors have greater than one year sentences.

Wreck n Crew is correct that not all felonies count and some misdemeanors may count. Words of the statute are key including definitions.

Regarding whether states can be forced to supply information--Printz v. U.S., New York v. U.S., and to some extent, NFIB v. Sebelius (regarding spending powers) suggest that while the Feds can request such information, the states are not bound to do so.

In practical terms, however, many states see this as an unfunded mandate and will provide the information if money was to be obtained, Second, some states do a really poor job on records management on just maintaining criminal arrest and conviction process data, let alone data on mental health and other prohibitors.

If you want an example of how it's not working, drive to Texas and visit the church that got shot up. DOD has been woefully negligent in forwarding data.

As to it being an unfunded mandate, just how expensive is it to launder a file of felonies by sorting data fields into a NICS compliant record and then transmitting it to them? Cause nobody is actually copying physical records and boxing them up for UPS to pick up. It's a really a matter of states just not bothering to do it, and the ATF not bothering to enforce it. It goes to the security theater the whole farce is based on - you would think the truly dedicated anti gunners in politics would be throwing barbs at uncompliant states all the time, yet what do we hear? All sorts of people falling thru the cracks.

They aren't doing anything about it and once the law was passed they gloated over their victory and moved on. No real follow thru. It has to be asked - since it doesn't work well in the first place, why ask for them to make it more onerous and throw up even higher roadblocks to public ownership of firearms? The reality is that if you have a felon or potentially dangerous mental case wandering around with firearms in your neighborhood then you and your police aren't really doing YOUR job.

Since that is an eternal state of affairs in human society, it's just better we arm ourselves and remain vigilant.

Tirod said:

If you want an example of how it's not working, drive to Texas and visit the church that got shot up. DOD has been woefully negligent in forwarding data.

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It's no different than any other database. If records aren't sent to the FBI in a timely manner or if there are errors in those records then we really shouldn't expect perfect results.

And lets remember what the FBI NICS replaced.......a mandatory waiting period where local LE was expected to run a background check.

As to it being an unfunded mandate, just how expensive is it to launder a file of felonies by sorting data fields into a NICS compliant record and then transmitting it to them? Cause nobody is actually copying physical records and boxing them up for UPS to pick up. It's a really a matter of states just not bothering to do it, and the ATF not bothering to enforce it.

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ATF has absolutely nothing to do with the NICS, NCIC or Criminal Justice Information Services......that is solely the responsibility of the FBI.

It goes to the security theater the whole farce is based on - you would think the truly dedicated anti gunners in politics would be throwing barbs at uncompliant states all the time, yet what do we hear? All sorts of people falling thru the cracks.

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That's because they are anti gun. If they were truly wanting to affect change in gun crime they would spend their energy on the people committing those gun crimes.

They aren't doing anything about it and once the law was passed they gloated over their victory and moved on. No real follow thru. It has to be asked - since it doesn't work well in the first place, why ask for them to make it more onerous and throw up even higher roadblocks to public ownership of firearms?

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NICS works exactly as designed, it helps prevent prohibited people from buying a firearm from a licensed dealer. It was never intended to do anything else.
It is a minor hindrance to criminals and evil doers.

The reality is that if you have a felon or potentially dangerous mental case wandering around with firearms in your neighborhood then you and your police aren't really doing YOUR job.

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Really? And how do the police (or me) tell who is a felon or dangerous mental case? That little thing called the Constitution & Bill of Rights gets in the way.

Since that is an eternal state of affairs in human society, it's just better we arm ourselves and remain vigilant.

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That's it.
Because you don't know who it is walking the streets you have to be prepared.

Tirod said:

They aren't doing anything about it and once the law was passed they gloated over their victory and moved on. No real follow thru. It has to be asked - since it doesn't work well in the first place, why ask for them to make it more onerous and throw up even higher roadblocks to public ownership of firearms? The reality is that if you have a felon or potentially dangerous mental case wandering around with firearms in your neighborhood then you and your police aren't really doing YOUR job.

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That's pretty much what goes on where I live in WA. We have a UBC here but LE doesn't respond to prohibited people trying to buy from dealers. They just don't have the resources. In my county an independent evaluation said that the sheriff needed 48 more officers to meet the demand for what they deemed appropriate response. It's way down on the sheriffs priority list. They may feel that it's a federal issue.

Sistema1927 said:

Can anyone point to a single case where a criminal was unable to get a weapon due to background checks and other gun control nonsense?

I didn't think so.

Why are we even wanting something so terribly broken to be fixed?

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yep, for the same reasons let's get rid of all traffic laws, mandatory car insurance and other nonsense b/c someone always find the way to break those laws or is breaking them at this very moment

warnerwh said:

No states send in the mental records to NICS

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Yep, mental health records are not sent to NICS. However, nearly all states report their adjudicated mental cases to NICS.

dogtown tom said:

And lets remember what the FBI NICS replaced.......a mandatory waiting period where local LE was expected to run a background check.

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10 states have a mandatory waiting period and 13 states run the back ground checks in their own systems along with a NCIC check.

The reason is they know a national database for back ground checks is a myth. Basically those states are working to solve the back ground check problem with their own systems and waiting periods. Those states don't consider the FBI databases to be reliable as a single source for background checks. Most states don't want to spend the money to develop their own systems because background searches are complex and time intensive, requiring a lot of effort (expense) to be accurate and complete.

Ever wonder why it takes so long and costs so much money to get a carry permit? Because it takes that long and costs that much to do the job right.

Unless they live in one of the eight "universal background check" states, NICS only applies to sales through FFLs, and a criminal can buy a gun just like anyone else, by watching ads in the paper or making someone an offer.

TRX said:

Unless they live in one of the eight "universal background check" states, NICS only applies to sales through FFLs, and a criminal can buy a gun just like anyone else, by watching ads in the paper or making someone an offer.

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That's correct and the argument the AG folks use to get a UBC passed. They used that argument here in this state and we now have a UBC.

Do they enforce it, no. As far as I know only one person has been charged for transferring a firearm without a back ground check in the two years it's been a law here. That was the result of a murder investigation.

CoalTrain49 said:

10 states have a mandatory waiting period and 13 states run the back ground checks in their own systems along with a NCIC check.

The reason is they know a national database for back ground checks is a myth. Basically those states are working to solve the back ground check problem with their own systems and waiting periods.

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Wrong.
Dealers either contact FBI NICS directly or the use a State Point of Contact (POC) who accesses the FBI NICS system.
No state uses its own background check system independent of the FBI NICS. They may have other databases that they use to verify information that is not kept by the FBI, such as list of those who possess a FOID or purchase permit.
If you had read a shred of the Brady Law you would know why this is.

Those states don't consider the FBI databases to be reliable as a single source for background checks.

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Horsehockey.
I got news for ya...................Texas doesn't report jack squat to any other state, and neither does any other state report information to Texas. It's reported directly to the FBI CJIS as required by Federal law.

Most states don't want to spend the money to develop their own systems because background searches are complex and time intensive, requiring a lot of effort (expense) to be accurate and complete.

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Most states understand that the FBI NICS is a free service and creating a state agency to do what the FBI provides at no cost to the dealer is a waste of state $$$$.

Ever wonder why it takes so long and costs so much money to get a carry permit? Because it takes that long and costs that much to do the job right.

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Nope, never wondered that at all................ because it DOESN'T take that long unless your state really doesn't want to enable its citizens to have them in the first place.

dogtown tom said:

Wrong.
Dealers either contact FBI NICS directly or the use a State Point of Contact (POC) who accesses the FBI NICS system.
No state uses its own background check system independent of the FBI NICS. They may have other databases that they use to verify information that is not kept by the FBI, such as list of those who possess a FOID or purchase permit.
If you had read a shred of the Brady Law you would know why this is.

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I have read this shred of the Brady law..

18 U.S. Code § 922 - Unlawful acts
(t)
Attorney General notifies licensees under section 103(d) of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act that the national instant criminal background check system is established, a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer shall not transfer a firearm to any other person who is not licensed under this chapter, unless—
(3)Paragraph (1) shall not apply to a firearm transfer between a licensee and another person if—
person has presented to the licensee a permit that—
person to possess or acquire a firearm; and
State in which the transfer is to take place; and
State provides that such a permit is to be issued only after an authorized government official has verified that the information available to such official does not indicate that possession of a firearm by such other person would be in violation of law;

dogtown tom said:

Horsehockey.
I got news for ya...................Texas doesn't report jack squat to any other state, and neither does any other state report information to Texas. It's reported directly to the FBI CJIS as required by Federal law.

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Where did I say Texas reported their data to another state? The records of any state may or may not be reported to the FBI. The DOD isn't even reporting all of their criminal proceedings to the FBI. That's the problem with NICS and the FBI data. It's incomplete.

dogtown tom said:

Most states understand that the FBI NICS is a free service and creating a state agency to do what the FBI provides at no cost to the dealer is a waste of state $$$$.

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Then why do 13 states use their own systems in conjunction with NICS? Could it be that there is no federal law that requires states to report their mental health records to the FBI?

It's free except our tax dollars are paying for it and you're lining your pockets by charging an addition fee on top of that. I wouldn't call that free.

Tirod said:

As to it being an unfunded mandate, just how expensive is it to launder a file of felonies by sorting data fields into a NICS compliant record and then transmitting it to them?

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There is no such thing as a "perfect database" when you are talking about millions of records. Do you want your right to self-defense to hinge on the efficiency of government bureaucrats?

dogtown tom said:

NICS works exactly as designed, it helps prevent prohibited people from buying a firearm from a licensed dealer. It was never intended to do anything else.
It is a minor hindrance to criminals and evil doers.

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Let me fix that for you:

dogtown tom said:

NICS works exactly as designed, it helps prevent prohibited people from buying a firearm from a licensed dealer. It was never intended to do anything else.
It is NO hindrance to criminals and evil doers.

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