Very Anti RKBA Law: Cornyn-Schumer-Feinstein-Blumenthal-Murphy legislation, S. 2135.

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SAF and NAGR are the primary opponents of this legislation. They are putting out trash and criticizing the NRA for supporting NICS Fix. Those organizations are continually attacking the NRA hoping to draw off funds and members. BTW: Alan Gottlieb, head of SAF, is a convicted federal felon-underpayment of federal income taxes.
 
The concern is that once punitive penalties for non-compliance are put in place, these categories can be expanded to include a general category (something vague like: determined by Attorney General, or something) and then the punitive infrastructure will be in place to erode RKBA.

If some future congress has the votes to amend 18 USC 922(g) and (n) to make prohibited persons out of anyone who ever got a speeding ticket, that's bad. We agree there. Let's suppose they do that (and the Supreme Court lets them). You once got a parking ticket, and so now you are a prohibited person. That's bad, real bad. But what are you hoping? That if that information gets dropped behind the radiator somewhere, it's all good, because you'll pass NICS? You're going to keep buying guns, knowing you're a prohibited person, and hope no one ever looks behind the radiator? Because if you do, it's what - a 5 year mandatory minimum?

I'm trying to understand here. If I, God forbid, become a prohibited person, I either stop messing around with guns completely, or I risk going off to club Fed. Thinking 'Hey, the Air Force drops 25% or the records behind the radiator, I'll just lie on the 4473 and hope for the best' seems like a really risky strategy.

Yes, a good point. Bear with me as I describe a plausible scenario where S.2135 can be a problem.
Let's suppose a suitably vague standard is set up in the statutes, say, "mentally incapacitated as defined by the Attorney general in consultation with the Surgeon general or CDC". Now, let's say the AG is anti-RKBA and defines mentally incapacitated as people who have EVER been on at least one drug to treat a "mental disorder". Further, suppose there is strong debate about this by many states and amongst the citizenry, but it becomes the law, nevertheless.
Okay, so now we need to define a drug that is treating a mental disorder. There will be debate on whether, for example, Ritalin, which prevents ADD is such a drug. Many state/federal reporting agencies would choose under current operating conditions to NOT consider childhood prescriptions of Ritalin, but if S.2135 becomes law, they will ALL report EVERY SINGLE citizen who has EVER been prescribed Ritalin.
You, as an individual citizen, may think that just because you took Ritalin once, say, 20 years ago, you should NOT be denied RKBA. However, under S.2135 passage you will most likely be DENIED NICs.
Hope this clarifies the point. :)
 
SAF and NAGR are the primary opponents of this legislation. They are putting out trash and criticizing the NRA for supporting NICS Fix. Those organizations are continually attacking the NRA hoping to draw off funds and members. BTW: Alan Gottlieb, head of SAF, is a convicted federal felon-underpayment of federal income taxes.
I personally don't like SAF either, because they supported the Toomey-Manchen bill that would legalize universal background checks. However, I have great respect for GOA.
:)
 
What kind of penalties? Public flogging? Jail?

The bill in question creates such penalties which are financial. Poor agency performance will negatively affect the compensation of senior agency management (i. e., employees not protected under Civil Service rules).
Penalties could be financial, the point at issue is to not legislate them, but to let them be determined on a case by case or even a policy basis, but at a lower level than a law.
For example, if I don't do my job right, I may not get a bonus. Fine and dandy. But I don't need a government law to tell my employer how and when to pay my bonus. Even if my employer is the federal government's executive branch. And, as observed above, creating punishment on one side of the compliance definitely will incentivize zealous over-compliance.
 
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....Hope this clarifies the point. :)

No, it's gibberish.

....Let's suppose a suitably vague standard is set up in the statutes, say, "mentally incapacitated as defined by the Attorney general in consultation with the Surgeon general or CDC".....
So you first must imagine that Congress would pass a law that vague and it would be signed by the President. What makes you think something like that is possible? You don't think there would be strong opposition to such a statute?

....Now, let's say the AG is anti-RKBA and defines mentally incapacitated as people who have EVER been on at least one drug to treat a "mental disorder". ....
And now you must imagine that the Attorney General could get away with adopting such a vague regulation through the very public rule making process he would have to follow.

The reality is the you have no idea how things work in the real world. You have a lot of learning and homework to do.

....But I don't need a government law to tell my employer how and when to pay my bonus. Even if my employer is the federal government's executive branch. ....

Actually, if you work for the government you do. The government is not like a private employer.
 
What kind of penalties? Public flogging? Jail?

The bill in question creates such penalties which are financial. Poor agency performance will negatively affect the compensation of senior agency management (i. e., employees not protected under Civil Service rules).

Slightly hyperbolic, Frank? The most logical way would be agency defunding, I suspect. And note, I'm discussing penalties for reporting 'false positive' results (i.e., inaccuracy impacting personal rights) rather than failure to report true positives; that's actually the crux of my point.
 
''
abajaj11 said:
....GOA is a credible, serious source who in this case is deciphering a bill ...
...And you've concluded this how and why?...''

Because the GOA doesn't have coffee cups in Schumer & Diane's offices i.e. ''let's get along'' , perhaps? They don't really compromise very well. Fact, Diane's fingerprints are all over this bill. Hey, it's my 1st cuppa maybe I've got it wrong. Let's look at the evidence.

Diane and Chuck have never ever ever, notta, supported anything that's pro-2A.

Gee wasn't that easy. :DNo advanced thinking, postulation or rumination. Read that article there, lookie here, subparagraph over there. I will defer to others to make the clearly obvious :confused:less clear.
 
Let's suppose a suitably vague standard is set up in the statutes

There's the rub, though.

Let's try this - imagine there are two parallel worlds. The only difference between them is whether FixNICS passes. In both of them, a few years from now, your "mentally incapacitated as defined by the Attorney general" passes, and the evil AG defines it down to include everyone.

In the FixNICSPassed world, people with an old Ritalin prescription are now prohibited, and the records are in NICS, and if they go to the gun store and lie they will be denied.

In the FixNICSFailed world, people with an old Ritalin prescription are now prohibited, and 75% of the records are in NICS, and if they go to the gun store and lie on the 4473 they have a 75% chance of being denied and a 25% chance of getting the gun, and then going home to lay awake at night wondering if the old record will surface and the ATF SWAT team will drop by at 0300 to ask for the gun back, followed by a 5 year term for the false 4473.

Do we agree that those are the two possible worlds? It almost seems like you think that in the FixNICSFailed world people with Ritalin prescriptions will just get to blissfully ignore the horrible "mentally incapacitated as defined by the Attorney general" law. It doesn't seem to me that it will work out that way. That law would be a problem, but it's a problem independent of whether the NICS records are accurate.

Or to look at it another way, if we tell the NICS folks 'every time you get notice of a felony conviction, flip a coin; if it's heads, throw that record in the trash'. Does that enhance gun rights in some way?
 
There's the rub, though.

Let's try this - imagine there are two parallel worlds. The only difference between them is whether FixNICS passes. In both of them, a few years from now, your "mentally incapacitated as defined by the Attorney general" passes, and the evil AG defines it down to include everyone.

In the FixNICSPassed world, people with an old Ritalin prescription are now prohibited, and the records are in NICS, and if they go to the gun store and lie they will be denied.

In the FixNICSFailed world, people with an old Ritalin prescription are now prohibited, and 75% of the records are in NICS, and if they go to the gun store and lie on the 4473 they have a 75% chance of being denied and a 25% chance of getting the gun, and then going home to lay awake at night wondering if the old record will surface and the ATF SWAT team will drop by at 0300 to ask for the gun back, followed by a 5 year term for the false 4473.

Do we agree that those are the two possible worlds? It almost seems like you think that in the FixNICSFailed world people with Ritalin prescriptions will just get to blissfully ignore the horrible "mentally incapacitated as defined by the Attorney general" law. It doesn't seem to me that it will work out that way. That law would be a problem, but it's a problem independent of whether the NICS records are accurate.

Or to look at it another way, if we tell the NICS folks 'every time you get notice of a felony conviction, flip a coin; if it's heads, throw that record in the trash'. Does that enhance gun rights in some way?

I see your point. It assumes that every criterion for being prohibited is on the 4473. If so, I agree with you.
If not, then I think there is potential for abuse. So, if there is a vague inclusion criterion that is NOT mentioned on 4473 because it cannot be explicitly articulated to be a yes/no box, then the potential for abuse still exists. An example of that criterion may be "mental incapacitation as determined by a continually evolving standard published by the CDC"

Overall, my point is, I believe there may be a long term strategy to keep adding folks to NICs till effectively 2A is debilitated and finally destroyed. This may be the first inoccous-seeming step in a multi year strategy by the anti RKBA-ers, now that universal background checks have been exposed.

If one thinks this is excessively pessimistic, then please ignore this thread. If you feel this is not a good bill, please consider calling your senators.
that is all. :)
 
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Overall, my point is, I believe there may be a long term strategy to keep adding folks to NICs till effectively 2A is debilitated and finally destroyed. This may be the first inoccous-seeming step in a multi year strategy by the anti RKBA-ers, now that universal background checks have been exposed.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.
 
NICS is not going to go away if we refuse to fix it.
NICS is not going away if we bash NRA for supporting fixin it.
Fix Nix is not Upchuck Schumer's baby.

Fix NICS announced Thu16 Nov 2017 introduced in the Senate by
John Cornyn (R-TX),
Chris Murphy (D-CT),
Tim Scott (R-SC) and
Richard Blumenthal (D-CT),
soon added co-sponsors:
Orrin Hatch (R-UT),
Dianne Feinstein (D-CA),
Dean Heller (R-NV), and
Jeanne Shaheen (D-NH).

Four Democrats, four Republicans, only later did 18 other Dem and Rep senators and 1 independent sign on, including Charlie Schumer. Maybe Schumer signed on to poison it. It is John Cornyn (R-TX)'s baby regardless of who signed on.

Goal: "to compel federal and state officials to report criminal history records to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)"
citing the case of Devin Patrick Kelly adjudicated by the military justice system as a felony threat to others (convicted of beating his wife, fracturing his son's skull) whose conviction on felony-level domestic violence was not reported to NICS.

It would be nice to believe that the goal of Fix Nix is getting only truly deserving miscreants listed in NICS. Getting adjudicated-as-violent people listed is a good first step. I support NRA in that goal. (I have found that a lot of the "bash NRA" rhetoric from rival groups is hyperbolic. The "bash NRA" rhetoric from anti-gun sources same-old-same-old too. It makes me make sure to always renew my NRA membership.)

My objection is Fix Nix has a stated goal to add people to the prohibited person list but does not have a goal of removing false positives from the system. I want false positives removed from the system. *pouting*

I know about people whose check system false positives included:
_ hotel clerk listed as suspect in hotel robbery in the 1960s (but cleared) suddenly showing up as a false positive decades later when old state records were added to the federal background records (all employees were listed as suspect until cleared by investigation--but the clearance was not in the permanent record just the list of suspects); ATF threatened to pull his FFL until he was able to get a deposition from the state bureau investigator who remembered his case and the fact he was cleared as a suspect;
_ man detained at traffic stop as a federal jugitive (released because FBI said it was mistaken identity, right name, wrong guy); record of detaining as federal fugitive in the files, record of release as case of mistaken identity was not; he had a copy of the court disposition of his case to attach to the appeal everytime he was denied gun purchase by BG check;
_ man in Georgia denied a gun purchase because the SSN had been miskeyed in a Washington State report of a felon sex offender that was added to NICS.

The NICS database of prohibited persons should be true positives on adjudicated threats-to-others as spelled out in the statutes. There should be a dedication to removing false negatives -- and I don't mean ATF issuing PINs (personal identification numbers) to people who can prove their innocence, as they now do.

NICS should be a needle stack of true positives, not a hay stack of guilty true positives and innocent false positives. NICS is such a mess of junk data that persons denied gun purchase by NICS are hardly ever prosecuted for lying on the 4473 by signing off on question 11 that they are not prohibited persons.

Apparently no one wants to forget that the Obama Administration had all disabled veterans who had a fiduciary handling their financial affairs labelled dangerous mental cases for NICS prohibited person status, and tried to get all social security recipients who had a fiduciary handling their financial affairs labelled dangerous mental cases too. When ACLU, NRA and Donald Trump advocated requiring that social security recipients with fiduciaries had to to be adjudicated as dangerous mental cases before being added to the NICS prohibited person list, the usual suspects accused the NRA and Republicans of wanting the mentally ill to buy guns. (I guess rabidly anti-gun Democrats either don't know any social security recipients with fiduciaries or the ones known to them are all dangerous mental cases.)

But the attempt by the previous admin to get unadjudicated persons on NICS is not grounds to keep adjudicated persons off NICS.

I think Fix Nix is about returning to the original prohibited person category: adjudicated as a danger to self or others by due process. I will hold its supporters to their word, because Fix Nix is a good start to justify pushing forward toward Fix Nix 2: removing false positives.

I think the effectiveness of NICS and the background check system can be measured by looking at the periodic DoJ Bureau of Justice Statistics surveys of Firearms Use by Offenders that have been run every six or seven years.
Code:
Sources of Firearms Reported by State Prison Inmates
whose last offensive involved carrying or using a firearm:
Source                            1991   1997   2004
Retail Sources, subject to NICS   20.8%  14.0%  11.3%
Non-Retail Sources, no NICS       79.2%  86.0%  88.7%
1994 Brady Act mandated local BG checks on gun sales by retail dealers.
1999 was the first full year of the NICS checks on gun sales by retail dealers.

So overall, the criminal acquisition of firearms from retail dealers has been reduced from almost 21% to less that 12% of criminal gun sources, correlated to background checks on buyers from retail sources.

Bureau of Justice Statistics "Retail Purchase or trade" (presumed subject to BG checks) for 2004 included: Retail store 7.3%, Pawnshop 2.6%, Flea market 0.6% and Gun show 0.8%.
Non-retail sources (what I call Grey or Black Market) are listed by BJS for 2004 as: Family or friend of inmate (Purchased or traded 12.2%, Rented or borrowed 14.1%, Other transactions 11.1%), Street/illegal source (Theft or burglary 7.5%, Drug dealer/off street 25.2%, Fence/black market 7.4%).
For those not matching these categories established by the original armed and considered dangerous inmate surveys of the 1980s, there is an "Other" category that has grown from 4.6% (1991) to 11.2% (2004) of prison inmate sources for guns.

Wright and Rossi, "Armed and Considered Dangerous", were told by U.S. prison inmates that they expected they could obtain a gun from an illegal source within a week of release from prison. The British Home Office Report #298 on the market in illegal firearms in England and Wales interviewed 80 firearms using offenders in British prison, who said they expected they could obtain a gun if they wanted it from an illegal source within a week of release from prison, from a blank gun converted to shoot live ammo (cheapest) up to a submachinegun if they could afford it.


Since speculation is apparently being allowed (this is Legal?) a perfect NICS system would have no prison inmates reporting acquisition from Retail Sources, with wide-open grey or black market acquisition by prohibited persons. It is possible the anti-gunners could then call NICS a failure and push openly for total prohibition of retail sales as the final solution, putting everyone who wants a gun on the grey or black market. I also want to note that, since the Viriginia State Police booth at gunshows can run an NICS check on private sales for $5, the $30 to $55 fee for a Bloomberg Universal Background Check (state law in a few jurisdictions) is more like a sin tax intended to discourage private sales -- reality check: high fees discourage BG checks. If we could get Michael Bloomberg/Everytown to get Universal Background Checks mandatory for the Drug and Street Dealers supplying 25% of guns used by felons, we might take a real bite out for crime. I am afraid that reducing retail sources of firearms for prison inmates who used or carried a gun from 21% to 12% was a great effort with small measurable result.
 
millions of us could lose our RKBA rights, for something as simple as a traffic ticket that has not been paid

You once got a parking ticket, and so now you are a prohibited person.

Are you guys using this as an intentional misdirect to avoid saying "Persons who are fugitives from justice"

Getting a ticket isn't the problem. Failing to show up for court and submit to the justice system is the problem. Most cities have warrant forgiveness plans for bench warrants issued for failure to appear for traffic and parking citations, so it's not like this is actually a problem for people who are, well.. Responsible Adults.

Oh.. and you crossed state lines while having an outstanding warrant. Fed Gov doesn't care if you are still in the state the warrant was issued out of.

So yeah, guess what, under the current law if you "have unpaid tickets" (which went to warrant) and you crossed state lines... no guns for you. Form 4473 Question 11D. This law has nothing to do with that.
 
....But the attempt by the previous admin to get unadjudicated persons on NICS is not grounds to keep adjudicated persons off NICS....
And the prior administration didn't get anywhere with it.

....Since speculation is apparently being allowed (this is Legal?) a perfect NICS system would have no prison inmates reporting acquisition from Retail Sources, with wide-open grey or black market acquisition by prohibited persons. It is possible the anti-gunners could then call NICS a failure and push openly for total prohibition of retail sales as the final solution, putting everyone who wants a gun on the grey or black market....

I've allowed some speculation, but your speculative comments, and a number of speculative comments by prior posters, illustrate why such speculation is worthless. Humans can imagine almost anything, and hypotheticals can be constructed to support any possible premise.

But such speculation, especially in the absence of solid evidence supporting a high probability, is meaningless. All sorts of things could, in the worlds of our fertile imaginations happen, but remote or highly improbable possibilities don't help make real life choices.
 
Are you guys using this as an intentional misdirect to avoid saying "Persons who are fugitives from justice"

No; I was trying to follow abajaj11's hypothetical where the list of offenses that bar gun ownership was extended in the future to very minimal crimes, and a promptly paid parking ticket is the mildest offense possible.

I was trying to get him to address the disconnect between what offenses bar gun ownership, and whether those are accurately reported to NICS. I don't see how accurately reporting whatever records there are accurately harms anyone - if you aren't prohibited (whatever the criteria might be) you don't care, and if you are prohibited, I think you're better off being denied than given the gun erroneously and having to deal with additional charges later. Instead, he just keeps repeating that gun rights opponents want to ban guns if they can get away with it. That's not news to anyone.

And none of us are better off when e.g. the Sutherland Springs shooter gets a gun because the Air Force dropped the ball. Incidents like that are decidedly not good for gun rights.
 
Great discussions, lots of debate and thank you, Mr. Moderator for allowing this to happen. :)
At this point, I'd like to summarize our discussions, in my mind:
1. S.2135 seeks, prima facie,to enforce better reporting to NICs by state and federal agencies. It provides financial aid to state agencies and can hold back financial bonuses for federal agencies. "substantial compliance" has not been defined but is largely believed to consider only under-reporting, and not zealous over-reporting.

2. It is supported by some senators who have a proven history of being anti-RKBA. Some pro-RKBA groups are for it, and some are against it.

3. There has been a lot of speculation on this thread how it can be misused. There may be some substance behind this speculation, or there may not, everyone can make up their own mind.

At this point, I don't see what else there is to discuss. Again, thanks to the moderator for letting us run free on discussing potential consequences of this important pending legislation, and I hope and pray the bill, if it becomes law, is not misused to deprive us of our God given RKBA.
:)
 
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