making an accurate pistol round?
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Hokie_PhD
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I like HP38/Win 231 but like BE86 better.
LiveLife
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May depend on the barrel you have - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/s-w-m-p-versus-glock.828444/page-2#post-10689162
S&W used different barrel twist rates for M&P 9 - 1:18.75, 1:24 briefly and 1:10 after 2012 with 5 square cut land/groove rifling. Current advertising for M&P 2.0 shows 1:10 twist rate - https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-40-m20-1
My load development for accuracy is same regardless of pistol, bullet or powder:
- Determine maximum OAL/COL using the barrel
- Determine longest working OAL feeding from the magazine
- Conduct full powder work up from start to max charge to identify accuracy node(s)
- Once most accurate powder charge is identified, incrementally decrease the OAL by .005" to see if accuracy increases without compressing powder charge
Good choice of components. I have been using Fiocchi SP primers for my recent years of testing and will be switching to S&B SP primers for 2018.
If you are looking for utmost accuracy, consider these:
I have been working towards the "Mother Of All Bullets" thread and have tested different reloading variables and posted some of my findings in different threads:
- RN/FMJ vs FP/RNFP/JHP bullets with longer bullet base/bearing surface (Accuracy generally benefits from bullets with longer base) - Various threads
- Bullet sizing of .355" vs .3555" vs .356" (Oversized barrels with .356"+ groove diameter benefit from larger sized bullets) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...re-sized-the-same.818806/page-2#post-10567453
- Longer working OAL vs shorter OAL to test gas leakage vs neck tension (For 9mm, accuracy benefits from shorter OAL) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/myth-busting-oal-col-long-vs-short.819257/
- Case wall thickness and variance to test neck tension vs bullet setback (Winchester among other headstamp cases do not experience bullet setback likely due to thicker case wall .200" below case mouth) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10715550
- Same headstamp once-fired brass vs mixed range brass (Due to "Myth Busting Neck Tension and Bullet Setback" thread, now I know why mixed range brass produced greater accuracy than .FC. once-fired brass) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...n-9mm-40s-w-45acp.799231/page-2#post-10213018
- Powder metering consistency - I am currently working on this thread
- Powder position - I will be working on this thread in the future as I have seen benefits of 100% case fill loads in respect to bullet seating depth (perhaps why shorter OAL produce greater accuracy?)
In the meantime, try bullets with longer base, sized larger, with shorter working OAL that produce smallest groups, with thicker case wall brass .200" below case mouth with no bullet setback, with OAL/bullet seating depth with powder that produce 100% case fill and with powder that meters consistently for greater accuracy (and W231/HP-38 may not be that powder based on my initial testing).
I hope this helped.
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brewer12345
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For 38 it turned out to be easy. Buy some DEWCs, pick HP38 or Bullseye, do a ladder test. For me, 3.8 grains of HP38 and a lead DEWC are the bee's knees. If I spring for the plated Berry's DEWC I bump the charge to 4.0 grains and seat to OAL of 1.27".
Yep. Find a good bullet, and work with it.
I would be a sad S&W revolver that had a hard time staying on a paper plate at 10 feet.
With no offense meant, are you sure that some (or a lot) of that dispersion isn't the shooter? Because if it isn't, I can't imagine a gun that shot that poorly would be corrected by tinkering with reloading.
With no offense meant, are you sure that some (or a lot) of that dispersion isn't the shooter? Because if it isn't, I can't imagine a gun that shot that poorly would be corrected by tinkering with reloading.
Dudedog
Contributing Member
No, no no, it was 20 yards not 10
Some guns are just better than others.
My 9mm 1911 will shoot almost any good 124 gr bullet well with 4.3-4.5gr of WSF, it just happens to like WSF.
Good bullets are a large part of the battle.
Good bullets, find a powder/charge it likes then play with OAL.
Some guns will shoot lots of things well, some are more picky.
I have found playing with the OAL can help. Sometimes longer shoots better sometimes shorter shoots better. (small vel change and barrel harmonics?)
If you want the last little bit you just need to play with it.
I have had good results with the RMR 124 FN FMJ (slightly better than the new RN FMJs for me), and excellent results with their new 124gr MPR HPs.
The 124gr MPR HPs will shoot well at lower charges as well, using them for match ammo at about 128PF.
HP38 is my go to powder for .45. N320 shot a little better in but more $. Still need to try WST in .45 (need to test my ,.45 loads with #2 still)
HP38 shoots well for me in 9mm but I have gotten better results other powders. (WSF, CFE-P)
Most of the time I am not shooting from a rest so a lot of my loads will shoot as well as I can shoot. (skill has always been a factor,eyes are becoming a factor)
I think you have the bullet part taken care of with the RMR 124 FN FMJs,
Work with the charges/OAL with the HP38 and you should get good-excellent results.
However I would be tempted to try a lb of a different powder than HP38 for 9mm.
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LiveLife
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Here's an article on pistol barrel twist rate and accuracy - http://www.schuemann.com/Portals/0/Documentation/Webfile_Barrel_Twist_Rate.pdf
you lost me? This gun hates Winchester white box and I would bet that at say 20yards I couldn't put a whole mag into a paper plate but federal and blazer would do it. BTW shooting and automatic not revolver. Now give me my buddies model 10 or his 22 revolver and ill shoot a tick off a dogs behind with those guns. I generally shoot at 10-15-20yards.
Sorry, for some reason I thought you were shooting a revolver. I also thought you said 10 feet, not 20 yards.
Still, the advice above about a Ransom Rest is a good idea.
It was to this post that I was replying.
You were right it says 10ft I meant yards. Sorry
ray15
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Many fast-burning pistol powders offer excellent accuracy potential. Bullseye was long the target powder, but as ball powders have come to capture a large portion of the market HP38/W231 became popular in this application. In more recent days Titegroup has developed quite a following for target use.
These relatively fast-burning powders cater to the lower velocity loadings that many associate with target use. They can achieve adequate chamber pressures at reduced velocities, allowing the powder to provide consistent and near-complete combustion. But many pistol powders are capable of great accuracy, and not all fast-burning ones. H110/W296 is designed to take advantage of the case capacity of the magnum revolver cartridges, and as such is very slow-burning by pistol standards. But it is one of the most accurate powders for chamberings like .357 and .44 magnum nonetheless, assuming it is loaded with maximum charges. It performs much worse as chamber pressure drops much below 35,000psi.
Previous posters mentioned Power Pistol and BE86, both slower burning powders than Bullseye/HP38/Titegroup. I'll add CFE Pistol to this group. All three are capable of great accuracy in full-power 9mm, but don't really like being downloaded to more traditional 'target' velocities.
So long story short, your velocity goals will influence the powder choice, even if excellent accuracy is desired or required.
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If you're going to look into an aftermarket barrel, I'd highly recommend the one from Apex Tactical Specialties. Their Apex Grade barrel will group inside 2" at 25 yards if you are up to it. Their best accuracy was with 147gr bullets, but I've had very good luck with RMR 124gr.
I tend to load a bit long, they run in my M&P9 and SIG 320, and load RN bullets to 1.140" and FN to 1.114". Using a chrono, I experimented with OAL to get the lowest SD. I load to a target PF and was only looking for about 1050fps. I had my best luck with BE-86 (5.4grs) and WST (4.0grs). These are loaded into sorted cases and ignited with CCI SPP. Both these loads will drop bullets on top of each other at 10 yards.
For my competition .38Spl revolver, I'm loading with Clays into Winchester trimmed cases ignited with Federal SPP...but it is a 170gr Hi-Tek coated RN that is only moving about 675fps
Iroquois
Member
Armored farmer
Member
Notes.
Keep lots of notes.
Keep a file of your targets too.
And keep good notes.
And remember that long term exposure to lead can cause memory loss.
And memory loss.
Keep lots of notes.
Keep a file of your targets too.
And keep good notes.
And remember that long term exposure to lead can cause memory loss.
And memory loss.
LiveLife
Member
Iroquois, good shooting but OP is shooting 9mm.
Blue68f100
Member
I'm wondering if he was standing on his head when he shot these.
Nice shooting.
Nice shooting.
Blue68f100
Member
I use bags to support my forearms and wrist when shooting a pistol for accuracy test. I find this better than just supporting the barrel. A ransom rest are nice but it's a whole new bag of worms to learn how to set them up. And requires a base that is extremely solid with no give under any conditions.
Yep. I have a Caldwell HAMMR rest, but have yet to set it up for just that reason. But now that I have a place of my own I can make a concrete bench and set bolts in it for the rest. It is only a matter of time before I do that. The targets I posted were shot sitting, two handed, no rest, with the target at 7 yards and the chrono at 5 yards. (Using a red dot). When I get my concrete "bench" set up for the Caldwell I can really wring some stuff out at 25 and 50 yards. It's on the agenda, but so are a million other things.
This. Plus the right handgun. I had a cheap FEG 45acp I could shoot well, until the barrel lug broke. Wasn't ever able to find a replacement barrel for it. :-(
A question one could also ask is - how long does it take for those skills to fade and you have to work back up to where you left off?
IMHO, another thing that helps is a bit of weight lifting to build strength to hold steady and strong. Of course, I ride an office chair and drive a KB pretty much all day at work, so I need something to keep up muscle tone.
Depending on your skill level, about 2 weeks.
The higher you skill level the faster you'll lose that "edge". By the same token, the higher your skill level, the faster you'll get it back
someguy2800
Member
I loose my edge after a month if I don't shoot. Some pistols are definitely easier to shoot than others. My buckmark is ridiculously easy to shoot. Revolvers to me are very easy to shoot accurately. I can print with a 1911 better than any other semi auto handgun. My favorite gun to practice with is an LC9s specifically because its difficult to shoot accurately. Its amazingly accurate for a pocket pistol but you really really really have to concentrate to do it. I get lazy about shooting if I just shoot my buckmark and I have to relearn when I go to a 9mm. Same deal with a revolver. Shooting my 800 fps 38 special loads in my SP101 makes me feel like I can hit anything I want. Then I load up my 357 mag full house loads and I have to learn about form all over again. When I got into shooting contenders at 200 yards I learned alot from that about form and grip. The challenging guns to shoot make me a better shooter all around. Shooting handguns for accuracy is really fun. I really wish I had better eyesight to be able to stretch out distances with iron sights. I can't see anything past 50 yards with handgun sights so I have to settle with trying to shoot really small targets at short range.
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