NFA AOW transfer to California resident?

GarySTL · Mar 13, 2018

An In-Law has a .410 shot pistol, Game Getter, that was registered during an amnesty period many years ago. AOW I believe but I've not seen his paperwork.

He's in his mid 80's and plans to leave this item to his oldest son or give it to him in the somewhat near future. His son lives in the LA area and he's thinking of taking it out there next time he goes.

I've tried to explain that this is a BAD IDEA for several reasons, but not having much luck yet.

Can his son even receive NFA items in California if done through proper channels? I know his son would have no issues with the Form 4 check, but as an individual can he receive the item? I'm aware that if part of a bequest there's no tax, but that's not the issue. I know all the movie props are out there, or maybe in Nevada, but how about a non-connected individual?

Theohazard · Mar 13, 2018

First, let’s look at the federal rules regarding this situation. Private transfers of NFA items are done after submission and approval of a Form 4, but only if both the transferor and transferee are residents of the same state. If the private transfer goes across state lines, the transferor must transfer the NFA item via a Form 4 to an FFL/SOT (dealer in NFA firearms) in the transferee’s state. Then that dealer transfers the NFA item to the transferee via another Form 4.

If the transferor is deceased and the transferee is a lawful heir, then the NFA item can be transferred directly, tax-free, via a Form 5 regardless if the transfer crosses state lines.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-9/download

Next, you need to make sure they follow state laws. I don’t know CA laws regarding AOWs, so I can’t help there. That said, making sure your in-law understands the requirements for transferring the AOW under federal law is a good start, because then he’ll realize that bringing the AOW with him to CA and just giving it to his son is already illegal federally (you didn’t say it explicitly, but it sounds like your in-law is not a resident of CA).

GarySTL · Mar 13, 2018

Yes, he's not a California resident, though his son is.

I'm familiar with the NFA rules at the federal level, and my own state as well. I was hoping for some information on California NFA rules.

Theohazard · Mar 14, 2018

Fair enough. But it doesn’t require any knowledge of California law to explain to your in-law that bringing his AOW to CA to give to his son in person is a bad idea.

You specifically said this:

GarySTL said:
I've tried to explain that this is a BAD IDEA for several reasons, but not having much luck yet.

You say you already know the relevant federal laws for interstate private transfers of Title II firearms, and yet you haven’t been able to convince him to not give his AOW to his son in person. So my question is this: If you can’t convince him to follow federal laws, how will any extra knowledge of CA state laws change his mind?

GarySTL · Mar 14, 2018

I'm still working on him. My next move is to talk to his son. Just in case he doesn't realize they both could be subject to large fines and perhaps prison time. Though if the folks on Face Book making SBRs out of AR15s get a pass maybe a good defense would be unequal treatment under the law.

My In Law is hard to convince of anything. At 85 he probably thinks he knows it all.

dogtown tom · Mar 14, 2018

GarySTL said:
.... folks on Face Book making SBRs out of AR15s get a pass ...

Huh?
Are you sure they are SBR's?
Quite a few folks don't understand the AR pistol w/ Arm Brace.

Telekinesis · Mar 14, 2018

dogtown tom said:
Huh?
Are you sure they are SBR's?
Quite a few folks don't understand the AR pistol w/ Arm Brace.

I'm pretty sure he's referring to the people who finally "see the light" about gun control and take their scary AR and use a saw to cut the barrel in half.

They think they destroyed the rifle, while they actually just turned it into a single shot SBR.

GarySTL · Mar 14, 2018

You got it Telekinesis

danez71 · Mar 14, 2018

dogtown tom said:
Huh?
Are you sure they are SBR's?
Quite a few folks don't understand the AR pistol w/ Arm Brace.

I think he's referring to this article posted in a thread in General

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...t-seen-on-video-sawing-ar-15-rifle-apart.html

dogtown tom · Mar 15, 2018

Telekinesis said:
I'm pretty sure he's referring to the people who finally "see the light" about gun control and take their scary AR and use a saw to cut the barrel in half.

They think they destroyed the rifle, while they actually just turned it into a single shot SBR.

What gives anyone the idea that they are getting a pass? :scrutiny:

Simply sawing your barrel isn't necessarily making an SBR.

Telekinesis · Mar 15, 2018

dogtown tom said:
What gives anyone the idea that they are getting a pass?

Simply sawing your barrel isn't necessarily making an SBR.

I'm not sure why you're quoting MY post, I was just trying to clear up what Gary was referencing.

If you would bother to look at the link from post #9 (which is what we're all referring to by the way) you'll see that a lady running for congress took an AR rifle, stuck it in a vice, and then sawed off the barrel at about 6" long.

Are you trying to tell me that an AR that started life as a 16" rifle and still has a stock can be cut down to have a 6" barrel and NOT be classified as a SBR?

No one is arguing that there are ways to shorten the barrel of a gun and not make it a SBR. What we're saying is this one person looks to have made a SBR and posted the video online.

dogtown tom · Mar 15, 2018

Telekinesis said:
Are you trying to tell me that an AR that started life as a 16" rifle and still has a stock can be cut down to have a 6" barrel and NOT be classified as a SBR?

.

1. You don't know what her rifle started life as.
2. Intent.

Quite a few folks have cut a 16"bbl and mounted a long flash hider to bring the OAL over 16". DelTon makes a 5.5" one.

At first glance chopping a barrel below 16" looks like she's making an SBR, but if her intent is to completely destroy the rifle by making additional cuts later.......she ain't violating any law but common sense.

danez71 · Mar 15, 2018

dogtown tom said:
1. You don't know what her rifle started life as.
2. Intent.

Quite a few folks have cut a 16"bbl and mounted a long flash hider to bring the OAL over 16". DelTon makes a 5.5" one.

1. He didn't say he did. He asked a question

2. Cite where intent matters in this scenario.

Maybe quite a few do that. How's it relevant to her?

Hows it relevant to this thread?

Jiminy Crickets Tom. The guy was trying explain what the other guy was referring to, as was i, and it's like your chomping at the bit to jump down his throat about something... anything.

What's your point in trying to lecture him about how it can be done legally right after he just said

No one is arguing that there are ways to shorten the barrel of a gun and not make it a SBR.

OldFashioned · Mar 15, 2018

dogtown tom said:
1.

At first glance chopping a barrel below 16" looks like she's making an SBR, but if her intent is to completely destroy the rifle by making additional cuts later.......she ain't violating any law but common sense.

Actually she is... Receiver has to be torched and torched first.

Frank Ettin · Mar 15, 2018

Enough of this detour. Let's get back to the subject of this thread.

GarySTL · Mar 15, 2018

Now I'm kind of sorry I started the discussion. I was really hoping someone, maybe living in California, could say Yes, it's no problem having AOW in the state, or NO, unless you're well connected it can't be done.

Frank Ettin · Mar 15, 2018

GarySTL said:
Now I'm kind of sorry I started the discussion. I was really hoping someone, maybe living in California, could say Yes, it's no problem having AOW in the state, or NO, unless you're well connected it can't be done.

And I'm afraid that I don't know off hand. I'd have to do the research, and I just don't have the time for that right now.

danez71 · Mar 16, 2018

GarySTL said:
Now I'm kind of sorry I started the discussion. I was really hoping someone, maybe living in California, could say Yes, it's no problem having AOW in the state, or NO, unless you're well connected it can't be done.

It's somewhere in between 'Yes it's no problem' and ' No, unless you're well connected' and it looks like there are additional restrictions on transportation and use of AOWs in CA

Start here.
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php?title=AOWs_in_California

Spats McGee · Mar 16, 2018

GarySTL said:
. . . . he's thinking of taking it out there next time he goes.

I've tried to explain that this is a BAD IDEA for several reasons, but not having much luck yet. . . . .

Unfortunately, I'm also unfamiliar with the provisions of CA law on this. However, if you're having trouble getting through to him on just driving the gun out there, you might point these out:

Congress said:
It shall be unlawful for any person--
(a) to engage in business as a manufacturer or importer of, or dealer in, firearms without having paid the special (occupational) tax required by section 5801 for his business or having registered as required by section 5802; or
(b) to receive or possess a firearm transferred to him in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(c) to receive or possess a firearm made in violation of the provisions of this chapter; or
(d) to receive or possess a firearm which is not registered to him in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record; or . . . .

26 U.S.C.A. § 5861 (West)

Congress said:
Any person who violates or fails to comply with any provision of this chapter shall, upon conviction, be fined not more than $10,000, or be imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

26 U.S.C.A. § 5871 (West)

Joekjr · Mar 16, 2018

Hello, I'm Joe. As a resident of the Great State of California and a gun owner, I keep a copy of California Gun Laws by C.D. Michel and Joseph A. Silvoso, Attorneys at Law, (now in its 5th edition in 6 years) so that I don't inadvertently commit any felonies. I just consulted said book:

Individual civilians cannot legally posess NFA items without a Dangerous Weapons Permit from the California DOJ. The permit is considered impossible to obtain, except for FFL holders with law enforcement, military or movie clients.

Quiet · Mar 17, 2018

GarySTL said:
Now I'm kind of sorry I started the discussion. I was really hoping someone, maybe living in California, could say Yes, it's no problem having AOW in the state, or NO, unless you're well connected it can't be done.

Under CA laws...

In order to legally own/possess a Title 2 DD, Title 2 MG, Title 2 SBR, or Title 2 SBS in CA; the possessor needs to have a valid CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit.

Title 2 AOW do not require a CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit.
The only thing required to legally own one in CA is BATFE approval (Form 1 or Form 4).

However, CA classifies Title 2 AOW as "handgun" and exempts Title 2 AOW from CA generally prohibited weapons laws.
Which means, the Title 2 AOW must comply with CA assault weapons laws and CA unsafe handgun laws.

Because this will be an intra-familial (parent to child) transfer (inhertance/bequeath), it will be exempt from CA unsafe handgun laws.
Because the Title 2 AOW is a single-shot, it is exempt from CA assault weapons laws.

Therefore...
1. The son (CA resident) need to find a CA FFL/SOT dealer and arraign for the Title 2 AOW to be transferred.
2. The Title 2 AOW is shipped to that CA FFL/SOT dealer.
3. The son submits a Form 4 for the Title 2 AOW.
4. After the son receives BATFE approval (for CA residents this is currently taking between 6 to 18 months), the CA FFL/SOT dealer can then transfer (4473/DROS/10 day wait/1 in 30 day wait) the Title 2 AOW (CA "handgun") to him.

Frank Ettin · Mar 17, 2018

Quiet said:
Under CA laws.... .

Excellent post. Thank you.

Theohazard · Mar 17, 2018

Quiet said:
Therefore...
1. The son (CA resident) need to find a CA FFL/SOT dealer and arraign for the Title 2 AOW to be transferred.
2. The Title 2 AOW is shipped to that CA FFL/SOT dealer.
3. The son submits a Form 4 for the Title 2 AOW.
4. After the son receives BATFE approval (for CA residents this is currently taking between 6 to 18 months), the CA FFL/SOT dealer can then transfer (4473/DROS/10 day wait/1 in 30 day wait) the Title 2 AOW (CA "handgun") to him.

Don't forget that under federal law the father must submit and receive back a completed Form 4 before step 2 can take place. Remember, a Form 4 is needed for an individual to transfer an NFA item to an FFL/SOT, as well as the other way around. Therefore, interstate NFA transfers require two consecutive Form 4s.

From my ATF link in post #2 (emphasis added):

ATF said:
Forms 4, Application for Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of a Firearm, are for use in transferring serviceable NFA firearms in the following instances: transfers by non-FFLs/SOTs to other such persons; transfers by non FFLs/SOTs to FFLs/SOTs; and transfers by FFLs/SOTs to non-FFLs/SOTs.

Joekjr · Mar 17, 2018

Quiet said:
Under CA laws...

In order to legally own/possess a Title 2 DD, Title 2 MG, Title 2 SBR, or Title 2 SBS in CA; the possessor needs to have a valid CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit.

Title 2 AOW do not require a CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit.
The only thing required to legally own one in CA is BATFE approval (Form 1 or Form 4).

However, CA classifies Title 2 AOW as "handgun" and exempts Title 2 AOW from CA generally prohibited weapons laws.
Which means, the Title 2 AOW must comply with CA assault weapons laws and CA unsafe handgun laws.

Because this will be an intra-familial (parent to child) transfer (inhertance/bequeath), it will be exempt from CA unsafe handgun laws.
Because the Title 2 AOW is a single-shot, it is exempt from CA assault weapons laws.

Therefore...
1. The son (CA resident) need to find a CA FFL/SOT dealer and arraign for the Title 2 AOW to be transferred.
2. The Title 2 AOW is shipped to that CA FFL/SOT dealer.
3. The son submits a Form 4 for the Title 2 AOW.
4. After the son receives BATFE approval (for CA residents this is currently taking between 6 to 18 months), the CA FFL/SOT dealer can then transfer (4473/DROS/10 day wait/1 in 30 day wait) the Title 2 AOW (CA "handgun") to him.

Can Quiet please provide a reference for the CA classification of the Game Getter as a pistol rather than AOW? I'm a beginning (mostly pistol) collector and this opens up my possibilities a bit. Also, great post! Thanks.

danez71 · Mar 17, 2018

Joekjr said:
Can Quiet please provide a reference for the above? Thanks.

Im not speaking for Quiet but go here.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php?title=AOWs_in_California

Does California allow possession of an AOW?
Yes. But it must be properly registered as AOW with a federal tax stamp.

An AOW would normally be illegal under 12020 PC, but you can be exempted if properly registered.

(8) Any other weapon as defined in subsection (e) of Section 5845
of Title 26 of the United States Code and which is in the possession
of a person permitted to possess the weapons pursuant to the federal
Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), as amended, and the
regulations issued pursuant thereto. Any person prohibited by Section
12021, 12021.1, or 12101 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the
Welfare and Institutions Code from possessing these weapons who
obtains title to these weapons by bequest or intestate succession may
retain title for not more than one year, but actual possession of
these weapons at any time is punishable pursuant to Section 12021,
12021.1, or 12101 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare
and Institutions Code. Within the year, the person shall transfer
title to the weapons by sale, gift, or other disposition. Any person
who violates this paragraph is in violation of subdivision (a). The
exemption provided in this subdivision does not apply to pen guns.

NFA AOW transfer to California resident?

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