As experts with firearms, what do you folks think about setting up a nationwide volunteer group of grandparent-age folks to provide armed protection to schools, located just outside the non-gun perimeter? "Grandparents for School Safety" could be the organization. Being just outside the perimeter, but available by cellphone to come to the aid of schools attacked, we could put a positive spin on guns as a way to protect children without incurring massive costs. Who else but grandparent-age people could provide such service to both schools and our right to keep and bear arms?
A volunteer force of grandparent-age folks for school security?
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Hokie_PhD
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Interesting concept.
I think parents and other responsible gun owners could also be of service. That said, I think the easiest solution is to allow teachers, staff and visitors who have conceal carry permits to carry at schools.
What I found so offensive was the kids put up to protest with signs sayin* they didn’t want guns on school campuses. It kills me seeing that logic, reason and facts aren’t being taught and that the “gun free zones” they want don’t work, yet they scream for what they already have
I think parents and other responsible gun owners could also be of service. That said, I think the easiest solution is to allow teachers, staff and visitors who have conceal carry permits to carry at schools.
What I found so offensive was the kids put up to protest with signs sayin* they didn’t want guns on school campuses. It kills me seeing that logic, reason and facts aren’t being taught and that the “gun free zones” they want don’t work, yet they scream for what they already have
Sistema1927
Member
IIRC correctly, the "gun free zone" extends 1,000 feet from the schools. Long way to run for the old folks. 
That's a good idea but there's plenty of folks to help out the schools. Most school leaders and politicians have an irrational fear of guns. The best suggestion I have heard is hiring returning veterans. I also think training and allowing CCW by teachers that want to participate is a great idea. However, many folks just equate guns with danger and know nothing about good vs. evil, personal and civic responsibility, etc.
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They'd be with their vehicle, not showing guns.IIRC correctly, the "gun free zone" extends 1,000 feet from the schools. Long way to run for the old folks.
George Dickel
Member
Some of these schools are huge and if you aren't familiar with the layout you would be wandering around wondering where you were, not much help when seconds count. These grandparents wouldn't be law enforcement officers and would face considerable financial expenditures in lawyer fees in the advent of a situation gone wrong. Picher, we ain't 25 years old any more. Our reflexes are slower, eyesight is diminished and we don't have the physical strength needed for this type of activity.
I believe that was overturned by the SCOTUS.IIRC correctly, the "gun free zone" extends 1,000 feet from the schools. Long way to run for the old folks.
Oath Keepers already has volunteer people out there where state law permits. Indiana is one place.
I do not think it should be pigeon holed to grandpas. Anyone who is ex-mil, ex-cop, otherwise self schooled could do this.
To quote Shakespeare, "Why do you address me in borrowed robes?"
The people on this site have an interest in firearms and doubtless most of them would meet the legal definition of an "expert" (i.e. someone who knows more than the average layman) but that hardly equates to any expertise relevant to your question.
I would say that hardly anyone on this site has sufficient knowledge of Federal law, State law in all 50 states, Federal Education regulations, State Education regulations in all 50 states to be able to render a sensible opinion.
So, what you're asking about is a volunteer group of un-trained or marginally trained people, outside the control of the school district and outside the control of local law enforcement, that are going to sit in private cars just outside the "no-gun" perimeter waiting for a call to come in to their cell phone to go riding to the sound of the guns.
- How does the volunteer organization propose to train the volunteers in how to respond to an active shooter?
- Who pays for that training?
- Who pays for the liability insurance to cover when one of the volunteers shoots a kid by accident?
- How does the school district ensure that such a force is fully staffed each day and ready to respond?
- How does the school know which cell phone to call?
- How do the police distinguish between active shooters and active shooter grandparents?
Bottom line is that it is an ill-conceived idea that does not reflect an adequate understanding of the diversity of relationships between local school and law enforcement establishments, 50 unique state systems and the complexity of the applicable Federal Regulations and would ultimately be a distraction/drain on the resources of both local school districts and local law enforcement agencies.
Great comments. I have some of the same concerns. Just throwing it out there. I just don't like the idea of arming teachers. I know some I wouldn't trust to be carrying in that venue.
Hokie_PhD
Member
You make great points about concerns that would need to be addressed about this idea. But dismissing it as a bad idea because it has problems, just leads to no solution being found.
Personally I think allowing faculty and staff that have conceal carry permits to carryin in schools and colleges is the easiest and best solution. And all it requires is elimination of so called gun free zones.
The grandparent idea, along with ideas about vets and others providing security also are good IMHO, however as I see these discussions going beyond simple security might serve multiple functions.
By that I mean, many of us feel schools aren’t working well. So if more people volunteer to tutor, assist teachers, coach, etc they could help reshape education not only as more secure places but as places where children actually learn and become members of society not simply drones and “useful idiots”.
As with any idea, there are many problems, details need to be worked out, and as time moves on interest is lost until the next call to “do something”.
Frankly I see schools as a complex problem and one that won’t be solved easily. In fact with thousands of school districts with all sorts of school boards it’s a massive problem.
bikerdoc
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I had the same idea. Then I dismissed it
Why? Because-
I will be 70 My next birthday . I'm in good shape 135lbs. I can still fit in my army uniform from 66, did 21 years as cop. Got my black belt in Shaolin karate in 88.
All that means nothing.
I get up plagued by arthritis, I have a plate in my neck, and screws in my hip. Plus an implanted pacemaker/defibrillator.
I am not the answer.
I do volunteer twice a month at the grand kids school under the WATCH DOG PROGRAM but that is more like a mentor/Tudor program.
After I left the PD I became an RN and do substitute RN work at various schools.
Don't get me wrong, if some thing bad happens I will react but the bad guy has the weapon and the element of surprise, almost as bad a situation as walking into an NVA ambush.
Not good odds but better than cowering.
IMO the answer lies with parents, and the mental health system, identifying and treating troubled youths, and in light of recent events, certain agencies, schools, FBI, and local police need to do a better job at doing their job.
Just my .02 YMMV
Why? Because-
I will be 70 My next birthday . I'm in good shape 135lbs. I can still fit in my army uniform from 66, did 21 years as cop. Got my black belt in Shaolin karate in 88.
All that means nothing.
I get up plagued by arthritis, I have a plate in my neck, and screws in my hip. Plus an implanted pacemaker/defibrillator.
I am not the answer.
I do volunteer twice a month at the grand kids school under the WATCH DOG PROGRAM but that is more like a mentor/Tudor program.
After I left the PD I became an RN and do substitute RN work at various schools.
Don't get me wrong, if some thing bad happens I will react but the bad guy has the weapon and the element of surprise, almost as bad a situation as walking into an NVA ambush.
Not good odds but better than cowering.
IMO the answer lies with parents, and the mental health system, identifying and treating troubled youths, and in light of recent events, certain agencies, schools, FBI, and local police need to do a better job at doing their job.
Just my .02 YMMV
danez71
Member
I've been one to say teachers should be allowed to excersize their 2A Rights and carry in schools if they choose.
But.... the idea of keeping bad guys out of the schools in the 1st place is better for the protection and defense of the kids and staff.
Just like most people would recommend for your home, a multi layer approach should be taken.
Entrances should be more secure. This is a No Brainer and will cost but needs to be done. Every cop says to lock your doors and every teacher locks their house on their way to work but the school's are left wide open.
Visual surveillance - This is where I see a volunteer force could really help because someone would have to watch cameras anyways.
Armed school resource offices and also allowing teachers and staff to excersize their 2A Rights and carry inside the schools if they choose.
But.... the idea of keeping bad guys out of the schools in the 1st place is better for the protection and defense of the kids and staff.
Just like most people would recommend for your home, a multi layer approach should be taken.
Entrances should be more secure. This is a No Brainer and will cost but needs to be done. Every cop says to lock your doors and every teacher locks their house on their way to work but the school's are left wide open.
Visual surveillance - This is where I see a volunteer force could really help because someone would have to watch cameras anyways.
Armed school resource offices and also allowing teachers and staff to excersize their 2A Rights and carry inside the schools if they choose.
Blacksmoke
Member
There are many people with good service records who could assist in securing schools. I wonder if they should be in uniform so responding LEOs can identify them readily? Perhaps they could be "Special Deputies" or some such and undergo training?
Cost too much money. Volunteers are free.
Uniforms are problematic. A simple clothing and cap/hat color combination would do - with a quick on vest that could be carried in a belt pouch. For example, blue with a single hi vis lime chevron on the back and front. These vests could be "decorated" in any such particular way, and would be unknown to anyone except the volunteers, and all local PD watch commands and supervisors. Added could be a particular color hi vis gloves. During an incident at the school, watch command and or patrol supervisors could make sure all responding units were aware of what the good guys are wearing as part of an integrated response.
This would be cheap and quite effective.
Anything that didn't involve official sanction by the school board and the Chief Law Enforcement Officer shouldn't be tried.
OTOH, there are many communities that use reserve officers with special duties that might qualify for official roles at schools that would permit carry on premises.
Approach your school board and CLEO about this and outline that these seniors would have to meet reserve officer standards, take weapons training and qualify on the range for an unpaid position serving in the role of school security officers. You might find it difficult to meet these qualifications, but an official role is the only acceptable approach if you're going to systematically set up a program that will be effective.
Better might be a mentoring program for the kids that are at risk of falling into abyss that leads to these horrors.
OTOH, there are many communities that use reserve officers with special duties that might qualify for official roles at schools that would permit carry on premises.
Approach your school board and CLEO about this and outline that these seniors would have to meet reserve officer standards, take weapons training and qualify on the range for an unpaid position serving in the role of school security officers. You might find it difficult to meet these qualifications, but an official role is the only acceptable approach if you're going to systematically set up a program that will be effective.
Better might be a mentoring program for the kids that are at risk of falling into abyss that leads to these horrors.
Sistema1927
Member
Jenrick
Member
I say this with complete seriousness, and as a active LEO.
During the day have the cafeterias offer free lunch and snacks to any in uniform LEO. You want to get cops somewhere offer free food, it's sad but true. If I can swing by a school, grab a snack and sit in the teachers lounge, I have a strong inducement to spend time in the school versus the 7-11.
On the civilian front, one thing I can see being very useful would be a crew of folks who have some training to be able to contact dispatch directly in the event of an active shooter and give high quality information. Location, description, activity, that is rapid, accurate, and correct is a massive tactical advantage. Also anyone at the school could be trained what we need, how we need it; and anyone from a teacher, to a lunch lady, to a library volunteer can be the one who gets that critical information out.
-Jenrick
During the day have the cafeterias offer free lunch and snacks to any in uniform LEO. You want to get cops somewhere offer free food, it's sad but true. If I can swing by a school, grab a snack and sit in the teachers lounge, I have a strong inducement to spend time in the school versus the 7-11.
On the civilian front, one thing I can see being very useful would be a crew of folks who have some training to be able to contact dispatch directly in the event of an active shooter and give high quality information. Location, description, activity, that is rapid, accurate, and correct is a massive tactical advantage. Also anyone at the school could be trained what we need, how we need it; and anyone from a teacher, to a lunch lady, to a library volunteer can be the one who gets that critical information out.
-Jenrick
I wouldn't. But the fewer that know to begin with the better. And it could be changed every so often. The markers could be Velcro attached and changed easily and rotated.
It might even be worth having it only known to volunteers themselves, and communicated to the responding PD as soon as things kick off.
Any uniform is easily spoofed anyway.
It would be great to have trained professional security but I don't think we can afford enough of it to be effective in itself. Even if we can, the conditions would be rather oppressive IMO.
Volunteers outside the school would really be in the wrong place to be effective. You might get lucky but it would probably be as an attacker left the scene. The first thing school security is going to do is prevent you from entering.
Allowing teachers to defend themselves and the students by extension is the crystal clear answer in some ways. First and foremost, it is THE most basic human right. Nearly as important, they are "embedded" among the students. An attacker will generally have to go through some teachers in the course of the attack. Something that rarely occurs with security personnel. Busting through a locked classroom door with an armed teacher on the other side is going to be very risky for the attacker if the defender has any wits about them at all.
But there is the downside. That is the fact that in a lot of districts, educators do not want to defend themselves. They want it done for them, regardless of the unlikelihood of that working. Some of the Florida districts announced immediately that they would not participate in any program to arm teachers. I don't know if the option and training can be made available to individual teachers, bypassing administration, but that might start a movement.
I think we've seen in the "walkout" just what we are up against in some districts. It seems to be the same attitude displayed by the children...That gun control is the only acceptable answer and they will actively sabotage any other approach.
Volunteers outside the school would really be in the wrong place to be effective. You might get lucky but it would probably be as an attacker left the scene. The first thing school security is going to do is prevent you from entering.
Allowing teachers to defend themselves and the students by extension is the crystal clear answer in some ways. First and foremost, it is THE most basic human right. Nearly as important, they are "embedded" among the students. An attacker will generally have to go through some teachers in the course of the attack. Something that rarely occurs with security personnel. Busting through a locked classroom door with an armed teacher on the other side is going to be very risky for the attacker if the defender has any wits about them at all.
But there is the downside. That is the fact that in a lot of districts, educators do not want to defend themselves. They want it done for them, regardless of the unlikelihood of that working. Some of the Florida districts announced immediately that they would not participate in any program to arm teachers. I don't know if the option and training can be made available to individual teachers, bypassing administration, but that might start a movement.
I think we've seen in the "walkout" just what we are up against in some districts. It seems to be the same attitude displayed by the children...That gun control is the only acceptable answer and they will actively sabotage any other approach.
D.B. Cooper
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Absolutely. Combat is a young man's game.
The first thing I thought of when I read the o.p. was that, if the few really bad students in the school figured out that the old man on the corner had a gun they would simply attack him from behind and take his gun. That scenario is akin to why I understand the reason I'm not allowed to keep a gun in my truck on school property. All my students know I'm a hunter. If one of them wanted a gun, it wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination to just go break a window in my truck and take the gun.
One thing for those of you who are concerned about "bad schools" or "bad kids" taking guns from armed personnel...these shootings don't take place in the bad neighborhoods. The kids that live in those are not the ones that come to school to kill as many as possible. That happens in mostly middle class or affluent schools. Perhaps it is because things are tougher and the kids are tougher and find other ways to get their frustration and anger out or because the other kids are tougher and the would-be mass shooter doesn't want the punk with a gun to kill him after a few shots or because they're dead from gang related violence. Regardless of the basis for it, if you look at the mass shooting data you don't find schools from tough neighborhoods.
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This has been very interesting and I'm glad that it stimulated responses. I also have concerns about how this suggestion could be implemented and whether it would be a good alternative to spending lots of money/training on in-school guards, etc. Just recently, there have been several gun accidents in schools and other places that make me wonder whether arming staff or even having armed cops in schools is a really good situation. Anyway, it's good to discuss options among knowledgeable gun owners.
Thank you for your opinions.
Thank you for your opinions.
I think taking the route of going to the school board AND the Chief Law Enforcement Officer and proposing volunteer reserve officers that don't have to be paid could be viable if they received training and certification as reserve officers is a worthwhile idea to explore with your local CLEO.
I also think that offering free lunch and a workspace to cops would be good as well.
I also think that offering free lunch and a workspace to cops would be good as well.
Officers'Wife
Member
It would depend on the grandparent really. Considering where he has been and what he has been through there is nobody I would want to hide behind in a shooting situation than my Dad. But... On occasion I have speculated he has the word "Duty" tattooed somewhere and his Captains bar on both shoulders. I somehow can't see him sitting idly by and watching high school age children walking around with iPads or talking to each other oblivious to their surroundings without somebody getting the whole book of stern parental lectures thrown at them.
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