JTQ
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Just trying to get folks to stop worrying about over penetration with pistol rounds, especially low powered pistol rounds.
FMJ in .380 for carry, a question...
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rpenmanparker
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I should say that all else considered I would certainly choose the most lethal ammo, over penetration or not. Now if we could only agree on what that was. I have to say that in the short time I have been reading up on handguns and ammo for them this is the only place I have seen the superiority of JHPs disparaged.
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Wanderling
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https://www.gunnuts.net/2014/10/13/the-myth-of-the-temporary-wound-cavity/
"That’s from the FBI’s study of wound ballistics; and is something that everyone should bear in mind. Temporary stretch cavity is only a significant wounding mechanism in projectiles over 2000 FPS, which no handgun round is going to be able to reach"
Again... a bullet that doesn't reach vital organs and doesn't create a large channel isn't going to do much. Nobody's arguing that.
My only comment was that if one is using a handgun bullet that is guaranteed to overpenetrate, i.e. punch clear through the body of an attacker, wouldn't you want the least amount of overpenetration ?
Tallball
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Get out the torches and pitchforks!
It's kind of a weird argument.
If someone intends to mug or assault you, and you pull out a handgun, they will almost certainly leave you alone. If they don't ,and you fire and don't hit them, they will then probably decide to leave the area. If you fire and DO hit them, and they aren't horribly wounded, they will still probably be focused on getting medical attention. Only a tiny percentage of attackers will be shot through the body and still continue to attack you. So, if we are saying that 380 fmj is inadequate for SD, we are talking about a tiny percentage of a tiny percentage of cases.
That being said, my favorite carry piece is still a 44 special.
It's kind of a weird argument.
If someone intends to mug or assault you, and you pull out a handgun, they will almost certainly leave you alone. If they don't ,and you fire and don't hit them, they will then probably decide to leave the area. If you fire and DO hit them, and they aren't horribly wounded, they will still probably be focused on getting medical attention. Only a tiny percentage of attackers will be shot through the body and still continue to attack you. So, if we are saying that 380 fmj is inadequate for SD, we are talking about a tiny percentage of a tiny percentage of cases.
That being said, my favorite carry piece is still a 44 special.
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Yes, and it was determined that the one round fired by Agent Jerry Dove that stopped an inch away from Platt's heart was primarily responsible for Platt's death. Its also been said that it was not a survivable wound since it ripped open major blood vessels in Platt's right lung, collapsing the lung and causing Platt to lose 1.3 liters of blood before he was shot and paralyzed by Agent Mireles.
Also, as far as people not needing rounds to penetrate car glass the way law enforcement officers do - there were an average of 2.65 carjackings a day in Chicago and surrounding suburbs - and by suburbs I mean as far out as 35 miles from downtown Chicago.
I keep a 9mm in my car, I'd rather have a round that has been shown to perform well through glass - like the HST, Winchester Ranger "T" Series and others... than to press a 380 FMJ into that role.
I personally haven't seen any tests of any 380 JHP through glass where the 380 round does well.
gc70
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I sometimes carry a .380 in a pocket holster - it conceals so much better than a .223 pistol or a .500 S&W revolver.
Shawn Dodson
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Penetration was about 10". The bullet hit Platt just above the inside crook of his elbow, penetrated through the biceps muscle and exited the arm at the armpit before penetrating the chest.
Arms are common obstacles to bullet penetration, which is one reason why the FBI suggests choosing a bullet that penetrates a minimum of 12". (In the FBI-Miami shootout the majority of participants were shot in the hand or arm.) The human body is the same challenging target regardless of whether you're a law enforcement officer or a private citizen shooting in self-defense. The bullet has to penetrate deeply enough to reach and damage vitals critical to immediate survival. Placement and penetration are the keys to producing a wound that will quickly stop an attacker.
then I guess you haven't seen this
I cannot prove but personally believe the reason .380 was popular in Europe for so long pre and post war was precisely due to its lesser penetration. In those days, hollow points were not available and fmj ruled. The European military round was the 9mm fmj which notoriously over-penetrated especially for use in a civilian, urban environment. .380 fmj provided that sweet spot of enough penetration with much less over-penetration compared to 9mm. Some testing of .380 fmj shows over-penetration but some shows deep but not excessive penetration. Even when it has over-penetrated it has largely spent its energy compared to more powerful rounds. Some tests show fmj flat-nosed .380 at standard pressure to have a tendency to tumble which limits over-penetration a bit. I’m not arguing against hollow points but there is an old observation that .380 power can either provide penetration or expansion but not very well provide both so we have to choose which we prefer. Short 2.75” barrels giving up 1/2 to a full inch over traditional .380 barrels compound the problem of hollow point expansion and penetration but actually somewhat limit over-penetration of fmj.
Well that is an interesting video, thank you for sharing it.
The rounds used in his video were Full Metal Jacket, and I said that I hadn't seen any tests of 380 Jacketed Hollow Point through glass where the round does well. Scuba Oz's video using FMJs doesn't change that. I should have further qualified my statement by saying that I haven't seen any tests of any 380 JHP through auto glass against the IWBA protocol or FBI Test number Six - Automobile Glass – One piece (15" X 18") of A.S.I. 1/4 inch laminated automobile safety glass is set at an angle of 45˚ to the horizontal and 15˚ to the side, into ballistic gelatin covered with "light clothing" as defined by the FBI, with the gelatin block placed 18 inches behind the glass - where the 380 round does well.
Scuba Oz put out a lot of great videos and I appreciate his efforts, but shooting a FMJ through a Honey Dew melon doesn't indicate 380 jacketed hollow points produce acceptable terminal ballistics through a windshield - meaning 12+ inches of penetration of ballistic gel covered in the FBI defined light clothing.
One of the main arguments for using FMJ if you're going to carry 380 is that 380 JHPs fail to deliver sufficient terminal ballistics through barriers like car doors and auto glass.
I think even ShootingTheBull410's tests show that to generally be true. The majority of the bullet designs out there failed. The fact that Hornady XTP as loaded by Precision One didn't fail seems to prove that the 380 cartridge can be designed and tailored to pass the FBI Bare Gelatin and Heavy Clothing tests and produce 12+ inches even against the IWBA protocol. When you say "not very well" I think that is a subjective statement and it is true. While you could say Precision One's loading of the XTP technically passed ShootingTheBull410's tests - they weren't fantastic, certainly not compared to 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP and 10mm. There is a difference between passing and doing well. I would say that the XTP passed, but it didn't do well. I guess you could say it did well - for a 380.
rpenmanparker
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Exactly. And that is better than just giving up and using FMJ.
There is an argument for not choosing FMJ over JHP in 380 ACP that goes like this "When 380 JHPs work as intended they expand and produce 12+ inches of penetration, when they fail - they usually fail to expand, and then they act much like a FMJ bullet anyway, so there is no advantage to using FMJs"
I don't think that has been proven out with auto glass. You might guess how a specific 380 cartridge would behave through auto glass by extrapolating test data from other calibers and other bullet designs, but I personally haven't seen data.
I think its safe to say that if you fire a 380 ACP FMJ through auto-glass and you hit your assailant in the melon, it should end the attack.
I don't think that has been proven out with auto glass. You might guess how a specific 380 cartridge would behave through auto glass by extrapolating test data from other calibers and other bullet designs, but I personally haven't seen data.
I think its safe to say that if you fire a 380 ACP FMJ through auto-glass and you hit your assailant in the melon, it should end the attack.
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BSA1
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I think its safe to say that if you fire a 380 ACP FMJ through auto-glass and you hit your assailant in the melon, it should end the attack.
Lethal does not mean instant. Your attacker dying 30 minutes after you do is of small comfort to your family and loved ones.
Livin_Cincy
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What type of melon ? Honeydew, Indiana, Watermelon, or Cantaloupe ?
Ya, that is what happened in the Miami shootout. I've read that even if Platt had been put on an operating table right after Dove shot him that surgeons wouldn't have been able to save his life - the injuries to the major blood vessels in the right lung were just too severe. But Platt did manage to live long enough to return fire, hitting Dove's handgun and murdering Agents Dove and Grogan.
But having said that, I'm still pretty sure that if you fire a 380 ACP FMJ through auto-glass and you hit your assailant in the melon, it would end the attack.
Hitting the assailant in the kumquats might also end the attack, but I don't know for sure since Scuba Oz hasn't put out a video of what a 380 FMJ shot through windshield glass does to a kumquat.
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rpenmanparker
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I wonder whether the auto glass company would either let you have a damaged windshield they have removed or even whether you could keep you own. I'm sure some testing could be set up.
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Wanderling
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Junk yards are full of partially damaged windshields...
RecoilRob
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[QUOTE="rpenmanparker, post: 10839245, member: 249797" How much penetration does a heart shot require on a human, 4-8 inches if that much?[/QUOTE]
That depends on the human in question and how he/she is positioned. You normally don't get to choose your shot like you can/should when hunting and must hit as quickly and decisively as possible. This could mean shooting through a large bicep/tricep then into the chest through lats or pectorals to finally and hopefully hit spine or heart. Could conceivably need 12" or more to be effective and with the relatively lacking momentum of the 380 (and to a greater extent the .32 ACP) I think ball is as good as it gets.
If the HP expands it's very likely not going to make it deep enough, and on a much less challenging shot that might only hit a rib or go between them....even the HP is likely to go right on out the back. Modern 'smart' bullets are a good thing when you have enough power to spare letting them expand on the way in, but the 'mouse' calibers are not in that class in my book....so Ball for them.
Oh...one more thing: back in the days of sword carrying a man armed with a rapier could pierce another through and through with only a few pounds of force. The 'energy dump' expended was very minimal but when you put a hole in things that don't tolerate such disruptions the person who was just holed will not enjoy the experience. I like to view the handgun as a remote rapier that lets me hole things without needing to be so close. Most of the argument we enjoy so much about this or that bullet is centered around the last 10% of effectiveness while the primary 90% isn't what made the hole...but where it was made.
That depends on the human in question and how he/she is positioned. You normally don't get to choose your shot like you can/should when hunting and must hit as quickly and decisively as possible. This could mean shooting through a large bicep/tricep then into the chest through lats or pectorals to finally and hopefully hit spine or heart. Could conceivably need 12" or more to be effective and with the relatively lacking momentum of the 380 (and to a greater extent the .32 ACP) I think ball is as good as it gets.
If the HP expands it's very likely not going to make it deep enough, and on a much less challenging shot that might only hit a rib or go between them....even the HP is likely to go right on out the back. Modern 'smart' bullets are a good thing when you have enough power to spare letting them expand on the way in, but the 'mouse' calibers are not in that class in my book....so Ball for them.
Oh...one more thing: back in the days of sword carrying a man armed with a rapier could pierce another through and through with only a few pounds of force. The 'energy dump' expended was very minimal but when you put a hole in things that don't tolerate such disruptions the person who was just holed will not enjoy the experience. I like to view the handgun as a remote rapier that lets me hole things without needing to be so close. Most of the argument we enjoy so much about this or that bullet is centered around the last 10% of effectiveness while the primary 90% isn't what made the hole...but where it was made.
Auto glass is very hard on bullets and the angle of the windshield will alter the trajectory of the shots that make it through. I have run across a few videos that show this kind of testing and its effect on the trajectory and the bullet.
For low energy FMJ, the "remote rapier" model is probably very apt. For higher energy ammunition, it's better to think of the bullet as a combination between a rapier effect and blunt trauma with the blunt trauma effect increasing for expanding ammunition and with increasing energy. It takes a lot of blunt trauma to kill someone, but the nice thing about blunt trauma is that it notifies the person that something bad happened. You hear stories about people being stabbed, or shot with low powered FMJ and not knowing it, but you don't hear about people being hit with a baseball bat and not noticing. I use the baseball bat example because the energy of a .357Mag round is roughly comparable to the energy of a swung baseball bat.
Livin_Cincy
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That is a really good point but is does not explain the arrow, a high velocity Rapier like projectile, works... Oh wait it does.
Dudedog
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I don't see a lot of scenarios where I would need to shoot through auto glass with a .380.
Do they exist, yes.
I would say go with a good JHP. Shooting the bull had a good series Ammo Quest .380.
As will all JHPs you trade expansion for penetration, and you need the penetration in case for example you need to shoot through arms etc.
A JHP will expand and have a better chance of damaging something important, and be less likely to over penetrate.
I was shot with a .380 by some gas station robbers, got lucky, the FMJ passed between my femur and femoral artery.
If it had been a JHP I might not have been as lucky......
Do they exist, yes.
I would say go with a good JHP. Shooting the bull had a good series Ammo Quest .380.
As will all JHPs you trade expansion for penetration, and you need the penetration in case for example you need to shoot through arms etc.
A JHP will expand and have a better chance of damaging something important, and be less likely to over penetrate.
I was shot with a .380 by some gas station robbers, got lucky, the FMJ passed between my femur and femoral artery.
If it had been a JHP I might not have been as lucky......
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I carry a 380 ACP handgun alot and am quite comfortable with it. Smaller size is easier to carry/conceal and it beats the larger handgun that gets left at home because of size/weight.
My limited, unscientific testing of 380 ACP hollow points is they do not expand reliably so why waste the money on them.
My carry 380 ACP gun performs flawlessly with FMJ bullets so that is what I carry.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Do what makes you comfortable and be happy.
My limited, unscientific testing of 380 ACP hollow points is they do not expand reliably so why waste the money on them.
My carry 380 ACP gun performs flawlessly with FMJ bullets so that is what I carry.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Do what makes you comfortable and be happy.
I did a little test a few days ago. These are both Federal Hydra-shoks.
The upper round is a 90 grain .380 from a Kahr CW.380.The lower a 124 grain 9mm from a Kahr CW9.
Both were fired into gallon plastic milk jugs filled with water from about 20 feet.
The 380 stopped in the first milk jug. The 9 mm exited the first milk jug and stopped in the second.
I know this is not relative to anything as far as performance in a SD situation, but I still found it an interesting comparison.
You can draw your own conclusions if there are any to be made.
My wife carries the .380 with FMJs and I carry the 9mm with JHPs nuff sed.
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rpenmanparker
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Please explain a little more fully. There are four rounds pictured. Two in the first photo and two in the second. Please identify all four images.
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