Just suppose a friend was wanting to buy a shotgun for clays...

Status
Not open for further replies.
That is a deal , the best I have seen it is about $650 to $700 depending on synthetic or wood furniture .
 
My original post here (#52) listed 5-6 different entry level shotguns that I currently own and a very brief highlight of each.
I must have somehow misunderstood the intent/direction of this thread,,,,,
Information removed.
Carry on.
 
Last edited:
rpenmanparker said:
Not necessarily so if there is another factor operating. Surely you know that autoloaders have less recoil than O/U guns of the same or slightly higher weight. The whole point of the Versa Max and V3 porting invention is the bleeding off of gas pressure greater than needed to operate the autoloading mechanism. That reduces recoil. Supposedly the 8 port system of the V3 is even better than the 7 port system of the Versa Max overcoming the small weight disadvantage.
Click to expand...
You cannot defeat basic physics. There are two types of recoil - actual and perceived. Actual is a math calculation (Newton) The lighter gun WILL have more recoil, simple. Perceived recoil, (aka "kick") is determined by gun fit, and action type. Not all autoloaders are gas operated, you also have long recoil and inertia. What these actions do is elongate the recoil pulse so it isn't as immediate (measured in milliseconds) as the pulse from a break open action. The actual recoil has not changed.
 
rpenmanparker said:
Supposedly the 8 port system of the V3 is even better than the 7 port system of the Versa Max overcoming the small weight disadvantage.
Click to expand...

It has been explained to you by people who’ve shot both and have experience with both. The V3 is a really soft shooter just not quite as soft as a Versa Max. You seem hung up on what you’ve heard and read and seem convinced the V3 is softer shooting no matter what real world facts are presented. Your perspicacity is admirable.

Sayonara.
 
George P said:
You cannot defeat basic physics. There are two types of recoil - actual and perceived. Actual is a math calculation (Newton) The lighter gun WILL have more recoil, simple. Perceived recoil, (aka "kick") is determined by gun fit, and action type. Not all autoloaders are gas operated, you also have long recoil and inertia. What these actions do is elongate the recoil pulse so it isn't as immediate (measured in milliseconds) as the pulse from a break open action. The actual recoil has not changed.
Click to expand...
All I care about is perceived. Is there a reason to be interested in anything else?
 
cdb1 said:
It has been explained to you by people who’ve shot both and have experience with both. The V3 is a really soft shooter just not quite as soft as a Versa Max. You seem hung up on what you’ve heard and read and seem convinced the V3 is softer shooting no matter what real world facts are presented. Your perspicacity is admirable.

Sayonara.
Click to expand...
You totally have missed my point, which I clearly stated. I have no idea which one is better. How could I? I’m laughing that the same manufacturer is making the same conflicting superiority claims for two of its products and referencing their stated reasons. When I introduce a piece of information as “funny”, that is exactly what I mean. Maybe you don’t think the contradiction IS funny.

I continually notice that many folks here don’t like discussing things. When a question is answered, the asker is supposed to say, “Yes, Boss,” and slink off obediently. But that is not how I roll. I talk stuff out. I get all the information out on the table to learn as much as I can. If there is an ambiguity like here, I want to talk about it. Sorry if that threatens you.
 
Last edited:
rpenmanparker said:
All I care about is perceived. Is there a reason to be interested in anything else?
Click to expand...
Yes, because damage from recoil is a cumulative one that over time can have serious debilitating results. Just ask those old trap shooters who now need release triggers. Being exposed to the recoil, in a slightly more comfortable manner, does not negate those effects.

The best way to reduce those effects is to shoot the heaviest gun you can handle that perfectly fits with the lightest loads that work the gun and do the job.

As an example - I like to shoot clay targets - a lot. I reload a 3/4oz 12 gauge load that not only works in my O/Us, but also in my 2 Beretta A400s, one of which is their 3.5" model. An 8# gas gun shooting a 28 gauge level load is fun to shoot all day.

You can see the difference in recoil by using this on-line calculator:
http://www.omahamarian.org/trap/shotshellenergy.html
Remember, increases in recoil is not linear.

As an example, I used the calculator to see the difference between my 3/4 and 1 oz loads in the same gun at the same velocity. 1oz was 18.6, 3/4oz was 11.8 - quite a substantial difference.
 
rpenmanparker said:
You totally have missed my point, which I clearly stated. I have no idea which one is better. How could I? I’m laughing that the same manufacturer is making the same conflicting superiority claims for two of its products and referencing their stated reasons. When I introduce a piece of information as “funny”, that is exactly what I mean. Maybe you don’t think the contradiction IS funny.

I continually notice that many folks here don’t like discussing things. When a question is answered, the asker is supposed to say, “Yes, Boss,” and slink off obediently. But that is not how I roll. I talk stuff out. I get all the information out on the table to learn as much as I can. If there is an ambiguity like here, I want to talk about it. Sorry if that threatens you.
Click to expand...

I have no problem discussing things or people disagreeing with me. Whenever it was explained why the Versa Max has less recoil you kept coming back with what you read. If you had responded with actual experience that would have been different.
 
George P said:
Yes, because damage from recoil is a cumulative one that over time can have serious debilitating results. Just ask those old trap shooters who now need release triggers. Being exposed to the recoil, in a slightly more comfortable manner, does not negate those effects.

The best way to reduce those effects is to shoot the heaviest gun you can handle that perfectly fits with the lightest loads that work the gun and do the job.

As an example - I like to shoot clay targets - a lot. I reload a 3/4oz 12 gauge load that not only works in my O/Us, but also in my 2 Beretta A400s, one of which is their 3.5" model. An 8# gas gun shooting a 28 gauge level load is fun to shoot all day.

You can see the difference in recoil by using this on-line calculator:
http://www.omahamarian.org/trap/shotshellenergy.html
Remember, increases in recoil is not linear.

As an example, I used the calculator to see the difference between my 3/4 and 1 oz loads in the same gun at the same velocity. 1oz was 18.6, 3/4oz was 11.8 - quite a substantial difference.
Click to expand...
I think you are saying is what matters is the integral of (area under) the curve of recoil force plotted against time. Actually that makes a lot of sense. That would correspond to momentum in unitary terms, and recoil is the embodiment of momentum.
 
Sav .250 said:
Buying by committee . The days of doing research on a subject has left the bldg. Good luck .
Click to expand...
Not at all. This is just one set of resources. I still need to go into a store to see what I like there and what fits. Look for a good deal in a nearby internet dealer with brick and mortar. I have friends to hit up on for info. And I am reading as much as I can.
 
Personally, if it were me, I would buy a flat or two of really nice target ammo, like Rem STS or Win AA and head to your local trap/skeet/sporting club. Make friends; most folks if asked politely, will let you shoot their gun. Try as many as you can, even ones you weren't considering and give them a box of ammo as a thanks. Picking it up and shouldering it in the store is one thing; actually shooting it is another thing and will give you your best feedback.
 
George P said:
Personally, if it were me, I would buy a flat or two of really nice target ammo, like Rem STS or Win AA and head to your local trap/skeet/sporting club. Make friends; most folks if asked politely, will let you shoot their gun. Try as many as you can, even ones you weren't considering and give them a box of ammo as a thanks. Picking it up and shouldering it in the store is one thing; actually shooting it is another thing and will give you your best feedback.
Click to expand...
Very good advice. My friend who I went with the other day has a very broad collection of shotguns, O/U, autoloader, and pump. He has offered to take several with us to his range to give me an overview of the characteristics. But while there if I see someone else using one I am interested in, I will definitely consider asking to give it a try. Thanks.
 
I am an old timer and I find this discussion amusing.

Just sticking to Remington arms, I prefer an 870 to an 1100 any day, and I have owned both.

Shoot the 1100 with a full mag and you have a live round in the chamber, safety off and where is your trigger finger?

Shoot the 870, and unless you rack the gun, you have a spent empty shell in the chamber, and you have no need to worry about an AD, and no worry about the trigger or the safety. You can reload at any time you think about gun etiquette with the safety and the trigger finger. Another shot without racking the gun and the situation is the same.

If proficient, one can actually fire more rounds with an 870 in a shorter time than a 1100, even though the 870 has a trigger disconnector. It can be done even faster with a Winchester 1897 or a Model 12, just by holding back on the trigger. No disconnector.

Jim
 
Sav .250 said:
Buying by committee . The days of doing research on a subject has left the bldg. Good luck .
Click to expand...
Yep,,, especially when the 'research' somehow turns into a debate over the definition of recoil.

Used to be into motorcycles (at least more than I am now) You have to start somewhere, and you really have to ride a few (ride: meaning a heck of a lot longer than just around the block!!!) to know what you like/what you don't, and what your willing to compromise on,,,

You'll never really know until you saddle up and go,,,,
 
George P said:
Personally, if it were me, I would buy a flat or two of really nice target ammo, like Rem STS or Win AA and head to your local trap/skeet/sporting club. Make friends; most folks if asked politely, will let you shoot their gun. Try as many as you can, even ones you weren't considering and give them a box of ammo as a thanks. Picking it up and shouldering it in the store is one thing; actually shooting it is another thing and will give you your best feedback.
Click to expand...
I've had the opportunity to shoot a LOT of nice Trap guns for the price of a beer or box of shells, and listening to some (usually very interesting) stories.
 
Skgreen said:
My original post here (#52) listed 5-6 different entry level shotguns that I currently own and a very brief highlight of each.
I must have somehow misunderstood the intent/direction of this thread,,,,,
Information removed.
Carry on.
Click to expand...
Huh? I thought that was good information.
 
expat_alaska said:
I am an old timer and I find this discussion amusing.

Just sticking to Remington arms, I prefer an 870 to an 1100 any day, and I have owned both.

Shoot the 1100 with a full mag and you have a live round in the chamber, safety off and where is your trigger finger?

Shoot the 870, and unless you rack the gun, you have a spent empty shell in the chamber, and you have no need to worry about an AD, and no worry about the trigger or the safety. You can reload at any time you think about gun etiquette with the safety and the trigger finger. Another shot without racking the gun and the situation is the same.

If proficient, one can actually fire more rounds with an 870 in a shorter time than a 1100, even though the 870 has a trigger disconnector. It can be done even faster with a Winchester 1897 or a Model 12, just by holding back on the trigger. No disconnector.

Jim
Click to expand...

The OP was talking about guns for clay target shooting (unless I missed something), so full mags, and firing more rounds is moot. 2 shells max for any clay game, and a semi beats a pump every day and a O/U beats the semi - IMO.
 
George P said:
Picking it up and shouldering it in the store is one thing; actually shooting it is another thing and will give you your best feedback.
Click to expand...

I know what fits me in a semi. Wasted a lot of money over the years on shotguns that didn’t fit to gain that knowledge.
LOP 14.25”
DAC 1.5”
DAH 2.25”
Cast Off

If a semi-auto comes with those stock dimensions or can be shimmed to them, I can shoot it. I like the Benelli Vinci and Berettas. I’ve owned a Vinci, 3901 and A300. All three don’t have the stock dimensions I need, yet they felt awesome when I shouldered them in the store so I bought them. I also knew d@mn good and well I wouldn’t be able to shoot them but tricked myself cuz I want a Benelli and a Beretta. I of course couldn’t shoot them and they went down the road.

I’ve chosen to say in a rambling way that you are so right George. Just because a shotgun feels right when you shoulder it doesn’t mean doodly squat whether you can shoot it well or not.
 
cdb1 said:
I know what fits me in a semi. Wasted a lot of money over the years on shotguns that didn’t fit to gain that knowledge.
LOP 14.25”
DAC 1.5”
DAH 2.25”
Cast Off

If a semi-auto comes with those stock dimensions or can be shimmed to them, I can shoot it. I like the Benelli Vinci and Berettas. I’ve owned a Vinci, 3901 and A300. All three don’t have the stock dimensions I need, yet they felt awesome when I shouldered them in the store so I bought them. I also knew d@mn good and well I wouldn’t be able to shoot them but tricked myself cuz I want a Benelli and a Beretta. I of course couldn’t shoot them and they went down the road.

I’ve chosen to say in a rambling way that you are so right George. Just because a shotgun feels right when you shoulder it doesn’t mean doodly squat whether you can shoot it well or not.
Click to expand...
How much can be done by the owner or gunsmith to fix that either with supplied shims or in the case of the V3 without any....a situation that I just don’t understand? Can a gunsmith make what is needed to make the adjustments without having to charge an arm and a leg?
 
The shims that come with the Berettas allow you to change the cast from on to off (LH vs RH). and allow you to change the drop from 50 to, 55, 60 or 65mm. Personally, being over 6'2", I could probably use a 70, but those are a custom-made affair.
 
The "right" answer is to get a shot gun that fits when you mount it...if it doesn't, you'll miss a lot of clays regardless of the game. Remember, your eye is the rear sight on a shotgun so it's got to be positioned appropriately.

That said, the choice of gun and configuration depends on the game. Trap requires a different configuration than skeet or sporting clays...typically, you want a higher comb and rib for trap, and a lower comb and rib for skeet and sporting clays. Typically, an O/U or semi-auto is more useful for a game in which you shoot doubles. A pump is fine for trap since you're not shooting doubles. For a game with 100 birds, I like either a gas semi-auto or low-recoil loads out of my O/U.

Now I live in the Denver area where my typical altitude for shooting is 5,400'-6,000' ASL. Shot patterns don't open up as well at altitude due to lower air density so tighter chokes don't work as well as more open chokes at higher altitudes. I find my O/U with a skeet choke on my lower barrel and an improved cylinder on my upper gives decent patterns at sporting clays where distances out to 40+ yards are common. A gun that allows interchangeable chokes is preferred for both field and sporting use in locales of varying altitudes.

Where does this lead? I have found that Remington stocks dimensions fit the vast majority of shooters reasonable well. I have been using Rem 1100s in various gauges since the early '70s and have used an 870 for trap. I like longer barrels for trap and sporting clays (28"-30"), shorter for skeet (26"-28"). I have seen Rem 1100s in good condition priced at $500 or less at Cabelas; they're a solid choice. My preferred gun for sporting clays is a wonderful Caesar Guerini O/U field gun that I picked up for a wonderful price. It fits me perfectly, whereas I have found that Brownings and Berettas/Benellis do not. My CG has 28" barrels; my next gun will be a CG Sporting gun with either 30" or 32" barrels.

I'd recommend that you go to a clays club with a good instructor who can evaluate gun fit for you before you buy.

Good luck and good shooting.
 
rpenmanparker said:
How much can be done by the owner or gunsmith to fix that either with supplied shims or in the case of the V3 without any....a situation that I just don’t understand? Can a gunsmith make what is needed to make the adjustments without having to charge an arm and a leg?
Click to expand...

The aforementioned Vinci, A300 and 3901 couldn’t be shimmed enough to fit me. They also had synthetic stocks so the stocks couldn’t be steamed. I’ve had two shotgun stocks(wood) cut down to fit me by a gunsmith. Other than cutting down a stock I don’t know if I’d use many gunsmiths to fit a stock, I’d use a stock fitter. The gunsmith I use happens to be an expert on Perazzi, I’ve been told this by enough people to believe it. So I’d trust him. If I were starting over and didn’t know what fit me I’d probably go to a stock fitter but only on a nicer shotgun like my FABARM, fortunately only the LOP needed to be shortened.

I haven’t checked out what a good stock fitter charges in a long time but the last time I did it wasn’t worth it on a sub $1,000.00 shotgun, at least to me. I’m sure someone like kudu could address this much better than me.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

D
  • Locked
Double barrel shotgun for clays ~$1000?
Replies
4
Views
379
Dave McCracken
D
S
  • Locked
Trap/sporting clays shotgun??
2 3
Replies
53
Views
3K
George P
George P
Bobson
  • Locked
Sporting Clays and a Shotgun
Replies
6
Views
648
MarcoPolo
M
3
  • Locked
suggestions for sporting clays gun < $1,000 in n. California
Replies
4
Views
544
Taurus44
T
A
  • Locked
Clay shooting for the young and unsupported
2
Replies
27
Views
1K
Will Fennell
Will Fennell
Back
Top