A List of all manufactures with DA/SA Pistols currently in Production

Kaybee said:

There are benefits for each platform and I disagree with anyone thinks that there is only one choice that is best for everyone. And I especially, but respectively, disagree with WVsig if he is saying the striker market will continue to rise indefinitely until there are no other styles.

Trying not to get baited into a debate about it but I can't resist.

1. I think the ease of proficiency is overstated in striker guns, and that the deficiencies in striker pistols are not shown in our current methods of measuring training. Sure it's easier to stand there in a sterile environment, that eliminates real world dangers, and quickly shoot a bunch of rounds into a paper plate without throwing the first round out of your group a little.

But there are still other things you still have to put the time in for. Like gun handling skills in a less forgiving platform. Holstering a pistol now seems like one of the most dangerous things that can be done with a firearm. How many accidentally discharges have their been that would have been avoided with another style gun? How many "bad shoots" have been committed by nervous people under stress?

My point is, It's inescapable, there are no short cuts for training. You have to put your time in for training with all platforms.

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Of course there are advantages to different platforms and I am not saying that all other styles will completely go the way of the dodo but they will move to a niche market. They are pretty much there already. Look at your list compared to the gun market. It is the minority not the majority. There are real reasons for that. Shooters skill is only of the the factors pushing strikers forward. Pretty much every old school traditional DA/SA is trying to grow their striker fired line up because their DA/SA sales are lagging behind.

You are completely overestimating the avg gun owner in this country. They don't shoot tiny groups with any guns. They don't put in any time. I see it everytime I go to a public range. The avg person not only does not "train" they do not shoot very often. I know people who carry but only discharge a firearm about once every 6 months and even then only a 100 round or so. The platform does not change that fact. Go to any gun games style competition you will see striker fire and SAO dominating the landscape. This is not sterile shooting on a square range. Even if you remove that from the equation the learning curve is shorter on striker guns than it is on DA/SA. Ask Langdon, Vickers, Bruce Grey, Pincus, Leathum etc... They will all tell you that learning to shoot a DA/SA gun well takes time.

It is not that you cannot learn to shoot them well. People do it all the time but it takes more time and the vast majority of the shooters do not have the time, resources or desire to put the time in. The honest truth is that most gun owners won't ever "master" any platform. This does not mean people should own one but IMHO its just the reality.

The rest is completely conjecture. Are you trying to make the argument that before striker fired guns there were no NDs? it seem like it. The platform is no substitute for the safety between your ears. If a person is negligent enough discharge a striker fired gun they are negligent enough to ND any platform IMHO. A long DA trigger pull is not a substitute for practicing safe gun handling skills.

Time will tell if I am wrong. In the end it will not effect me much. I have more DA/SA guns in the safe than I will ever be able to shoot to failure in my lifetime. I will be worm food long before my DA/SA guns fall apart and if I get the bug to get another one even if everyone on the list stopped making them today there are millions in the marketplace to satisfy my needs at any and all price points.

ATLDave said:

They're easier to shoot for the first shot, but then harder to shoot for all the remaining shots. That's why they've actually receded quite a bit in competition, with the DA/SA guns making a big comeback in divisions/categories wherever SAO pistols aren't allowed.

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I agree.

Kaybee said:

No need to be so extreme. Of course I'm not saying there was no NDs before striker fired guns. We are in agreement that all owners should practice gun safety. Are you arguing that trigger weight is absolutely no factor in Glock Leg and that training can completely eliminate all chance human error?

I'm also not arguing that striker fired guns are not a lot more popular. Mentioning another type of guns always results in someone pointing that out. What I am arguing is that TDA's are more than just some obscure nitch, the market is still supporting many models. I also think that some of their safety features could be useful to inexperienced shooters that you are talking about, and I hope they can learn about then as an option. I have also noticed recently even a gain in popularity, at least in gun media.

Also that the darn CZ that I want is always sold out. :/

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No what I am saying is that the number of Glock NDs is not due to the trigger type. It is due to the poor gun handling of the individual and the sheer number of Glocks in the marketplace. There are more Glocks in the hands of LEO and armed citizens in this country than any other gun make or design. The sheer number of guns in service = more NDs. I have never seen any data that the rate of NDs as a percentage of guns in service is any higher than other platforms. The Internet however makes it seem that way.

In the end you clearly like the DA/SA platform and believe it has advantages that you like. That's great I hope there are DA/SA guns to fit your needs for a longtime but your you are using circular reasoning to justify your choices. Your premises are flowing from your conclusions. You are substituting your subjective preferences for universal truths. Your statements only make sense if you have already accepted the conclusion before your premises. Maybe "universal truths" is too strong a statement but I believe I am being more objective. YMMV

I like DA/SA. I cut my teeth shooting P228/P226/P220 I spent a ton of time working to a decocker to get my DA pull to stay in the A zone. Over the years I have come to the realization that most people don't shoot enough to become proficient with the platform. I personally have also come to realize I shoot other platforms better but as I stated earlier in the thread I still carry a DA/SA in the summer.

ATLDave said:

They're easier to shoot for the first shot, but then harder to shoot for all the remaining shots. That's why they've actually receded quite a bit in competition, with the DA/SA guns making a big comeback in divisions/categories wherever SAO pistols aren't allowed.

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Interesting. I am not a big competition guy but which division are you referring to? The last IDPA data from 2017 did not reflect what you are saying. Is this a 2018 thing? Are you referring to Steogers recent USPSA wins with a Beretta and Tanfoglio.

Tanfoglio still makes decocker models -- part of their Law Enforcement series of weapons (and probably the guns used in the EAA EZ series.) These models aren't being actively imported to the US, but some may show up from time to time.

Here's a link to the Tanfoglio site and to the Law Enforcement group of weapons, some of which have decockers and some which have safeties: http://www.tanfoglio.it/eng/catalogo/law-enforcement/force-serie.html

Kaybee said:

Kriss USA - Kriss USA imports the swiss made SPHINX pistols, which are compact 9mm pistols with a frame mounted decocker. It's modeled after the cz-75. The slide and frame are metal, but the entire grip is polymer.

https://kriss-usa.com/

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They are no longer made in Switzerland. They are made in in VA IIRC. They also offer all aluminum frames in addition to the polymer lowers. Alphas have polymer lowers on an alum upper frame. The "Compacts"

https://kriss-usa.com/15-rifles/short-barrel-rifles/312-sphinx-sdp-compact-black-s4-wsdcm-e018

Thanks for a good discussion. I will leave it with one of my favorite EL videos. Todd Green's The FAST Drill If I could shoot any platform this well I would be happy! In the video he says since 2007 only 13 people have managed to earn a challenge coin after shooting this drill in his class. In ELs the class you have 3 chances to complete this drill in under 5 seconds. If you complete it in under 5 seconds 2 out of 3 times you earn a coin.

In the LAV & KH training I attended one of the gentleman taking the class, Justin Dyal, who writes for SWAT Magazine, won challenge coin #5 from Todd Green. https://pistol-training.com/archives/2950

WVsig said:

Interesting. I am not a big competition guy but which division are you referring to? The last IDPA data from 2017 did not reflect what you are saying. Is this a 2018 thing? Are you referring to Steogers recent USPSA wins with a Beretta and Tanfoglio.

View attachment 796017

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Not IDPA, USPSA.

2017 Nationals survey data for production division (where the strikers and DA/SA guns are required):

Production division:

Firearm manufacturer:
CZ-USA 37%
Tangfolio 37%
Glock 12%
Sig Sauer 9%
Springfield 6%
Walther 6%

Firearm model:
Tangfolio Stock 2 17%
CZ Shadow 2 15%
CZ Shadow 12%
Glock 34 9%
Wlather PPQ 6%
Sig Sauer P320X5 4%
Sig Sauer P320 4%

It's well past Stoeger, although obviously a guy who wins 6 nationals in 7 years (I think that's right) influences a lot of stuff. The one guy who broke that streak - Alex Gutt - was also shooting a Tanfo'.

ATLDave said:

Not IDPA, USPSA.

2017 Nationals survey data for production division (where the strikers and DA/SA guns are required):

Production division:

Firearm manufacturer:
CZ-USA 37%
Tangfolio 37%
Glock 12%
Sig Sauer 9%
Springfield 6%
Walther 6%

Firearm model:
Tangfolio Stock 2 17%
CZ Shadow 2 15%
CZ Shadow 12%
Glock 34 9%
Wlather PPQ 6%
Sig Sauer P320X5 4%
Sig Sauer P320 4%

It's well past Stoeger, although obviously a guy who wins 6 nationals in 7 years (I think that's right) influences a lot of stuff. The one guy who broke that streak - Alex Gutt - was also shooting a Tanfo'.

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I knew the Tangfolio and the the Shadow 2 were very popular in production. It is my understanding that CZ basically built the Shaodw 2 for the Production division. As I said I am not a competition guy but I was aware of the DA/SA love in the Production Division. Good info thanks.

WVsig said:

Thanks for a good discussion. I will leave it with one of my favorite EL videos. Todd Green's The FAST Drill If I could shoot any platform this well I would be happy! In the video he says since 2007 only 13 people have managed to earn a challenge coin after shooting this drill in his class. In ELs the class you have 3 chances to complete this drill in under 5 seconds. If you complete it in under 5 seconds 2 out of 3 times you earn a coin.

In the LAV & KH training I attended one of the gentleman taking the class, Justin Dyal, who writes for SWAT Magazine, won challenge coin #5 from Todd Green. https://pistol-training.com/archives/2950

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Here's Ben Stoeger running the drill... but made harder.

WVsig said:

I knew the Tangfolio and the the Shadow 2 were very popular in production. It is my understanding that CZ basically built the Shaodw 2 for the Production division. IAs I said I am not a competition guy but I was aware of the DA/SA love in the Production Division. Good info thanks.

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CZ built the Shadow for Production, and then Tanfo Stock II's got really popular, and then CZ basically copied the ergos back from the Stock II (itself a mutated copy of CZ stuff) to try to get back to the front. They're both super nice guns.

ATLDave said:

Here's Ben Stoeger running the drill... but made harder.

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Nice like I was saying most of us do not have that level of skill or time behind the gun.

ATLDave said:

CZ built the Shadow for Production, and then Tanfo Stock II's got really popular, and then CZ basically copied the ergos back from the Stock II (itself a mutated copy of CZ stuff) to try to get back to the front. They're both super nice guns.

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I own a Shadow 2. For me its just a range toy but it is nice. I also use it for informal steel challenges. I am big fan of the CZ 75B platforms. Unfortunately I have to modify they to fit my small hands. CGWs takes care of that for me. I can shoot the compacts without modification.

WVsig said:

Nice like I was saying most of us do not have that level of skill or time behind the gun.

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Yeah, maybe 10 people in the world have that level of skill with a production-type gun. Maybe.

WVsig said:

No what I am saying is that the number of Glock NDs is not due to the trigger type. It is due to the poor gun handling of the individual and the sheer number of Glocks in the marketplace. There are more Glocks in the hands of LEO and armed citizens in this country than any other gun make or design. The sheer number of guns in service = more NDs. I have never seen any data that the rate of NDs as a percentage of guns in service is any higher than other platforms. The Internet however makes it seem that way.

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While I'll agree the sheer number of Glock's in use certainly contributes, and is probably the major reason, for the number of ND's reported with them. However, are you really saying the trigger characteristics that we've all agreed make the Glock easy to shoot, a light, short stroke trigger, with no manual safety, has nothing to do with the number of Glock ND's. This is in addition to a manual of arms that requires the trigger to be pulled to disassemble the gun.

Easy to shoot when you want to, is still easy to shoot when you don't want to. There is no free lunch.

JTQ said:

While I'll agree the sheer number of Glock's in use certainly contributes, and is probably the major reason, for the number of ND's reported with them. However, are you really saying the trigger characteristics that we've all agreed make the Glock easy to shoot, a light, short stroke trigger, with no manual safety, has nothing to do with the number of Glock ND's. This is in addition to a manual of arms that requires the trigger to be pulled to disassemble the gun.

Easy to shoot when you want to, is still easy to shoot when you don't want to. There is no free lunch.

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I am asking for statistic not assumptions that the number of Glock NDs is higher than other trigger platforms. I am also asking can anyone proof that the level of negligence required to ND a Glock is not statistically more likely to result in a ND. While I agree on the surface it would appear that way but I have never seen anyone who can show that to be the case. Sometimes what we assume to be true isnt.

WVsig said:

I am asking for statistic not assumptions that the number of Glock NDs is higher than other trigger platforms. I am also asking can anyone proof that the level of negligence required to ND a Glock is not statistically more likely to result in a ND. While I agree on the surface it would appear that way but I have never seen anyone who can show that to be the case. Sometimes what we assume to be true isnt.

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There have been law enforcement agencies that claimed to have found that in their own data. But since there's no database that tracks negligent discharges generally, much less by firearm brand/model/make, that data simply doesn't exist for a large population. Fortunately, statistical evidence is not the only way to figure out things.

ATLDave said:

They're easier to shoot for the first shot, but then harder to shoot for all the remaining shots. That's why they've actually receded quite a bit in competition, with the DA/SA guns making a big comeback in divisions/categories wherever SAO pistols aren't allowed.

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Huh?!! Striker fired guns don't change from the first shot to the last shot. Striker fired guns are known for consistency.

LA County Sheriff's doubled accidental discharges when they switched from Beretta's to M&P's.

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-sheriff-guns-20150614-story.html

stchman said:

Huh?!! Striker fired guns don't change from the first shot to the last shot. Striker fired guns are known for consistency.

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Correct. Whereas DA/SA guns get easier to shoot. So the striker fired gun is easier than a DA/SA on the first shot, and then harder on all subsequent shots (precisely because it never gets the SA pull).

stchman said:

Huh?!! Striker fired guns don't change from the first shot to the last shot. Striker fired guns are known for consistency.

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The single action trigger of a DA/SA pistol is typically superior to a striker fired trigger.

JTQ said:

LA County Sheriff's doubled accidental discharges when they switched from Beretta's to M&P's.

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-sheriff-guns-20150614-story.html

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DC's police had a similar experience, but I can only imagine the hate a washington post link will get here, so I'll just skip it.

WVsig said:

Really look at Sig and Beretta the King and Queen of the DA/SA platform are both moving towards striker fired tactical plastic. LEO and Govt contracts drive the market because of economy of scale. The last DA/SA gun to win a big contract was the Sig SP2022 and that was in 2002. Striker fired DAO guns dominate the US LEO market. I hate to say it but the commercial market in the US does not drive the market. It is the secondary market vs large scale Govt and LEO contracts. We benefit from it in many ways but it also can kill platforms.

Look at the list and compare it to how many people offer DAO striker fired guns.....

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In 2015 alone the US Manufactured 3.6 Million pistols. The entire DOD is not expected to buy more than 500,000 pistols over the life of the multi-year contract. I think it's safe to say the US commercial pistol market is many times the size of the military market. Factoring the the LEO and other agencies market would still likely result in the US commercial market having at least a 10x advantage.



https://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/01/19/army-picks-sig-sauer-replace-m9-service-pistol.html

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center...tates-annual-statistical-update-2017/download