Smith and Wesson Victory model... timing issues

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dave_the_swede

dave_the_swede

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Hey guys I got a well worn (like 0% finish) U.S. issued Smith and Wesson victory model, it's got the firing pin block as indicated by the SV serial # but it seems to have timing issues. The timing issues don't seem real bad just a fraction of a millimeter it seems, it makes me kinda nervous so I haven't fired it yet... I was wondering how do I diagnose what part is causing the issue, I know it could be the ratchets, the hand or maybe the cylinder or cylinder stop. I am by no means a revolver expert, and for all I know a fraction of a millimeter till lock up might be normal for older smiths. I have read that older smiths can be difficult to fix because parts availability, I was wondering if the oversized hands that midway usa sells would fit into a late victory model.

Thanks in advance
-the swede
 
There are plenty of parts that wear, but for timing the most important are the bolt and the cylinder. Cylinders don’t wear much, but I have seen one where the gun was cocked really fast a lot kinda mushroom the cuts on the cylinder a bit. Seems the cylinder was not properly heat treated on that particular gun. Is the bolt rounded off or is it still square on the sides?
 
I'm trying to learn what I can by googling parts sorry if I'm wrong but is the bolt the bar that the cylinder release screws into? It looks like that bar is square on the sides. or are you talking about the cylinder stop? the cylinder stop is also square on the sides, is it possible that the springs that actuate the cylinder stop are worn out? Like I said I'm new to actually working on revolvers, I've had new ones that work perfect... but this old war horse is tired and needs some work to get it back in shape.
 
dave_the_swede said:
I'm trying to learn what I can by googling parts sorry if I'm wrong but is the bolt the bar that the cylinder release screws into? It looks like that bar is square on the sides. or are you talking about the cylinder stop? the cylinder stop is also square on the sides, is it possible that the springs that actuate the cylinder stop are worn out? Like I said I'm new to actually working on revolvers, I've had new ones that work perfect... but this old war horse is tired and needs some work to get it back in shape.
Click to expand...
Cylinder stop

And yes it’s very likely that the springs are tired, but that should not matter on that part if they are still working at all. My concern moreso than anything else would be cleaning it up internally and making sure there isn’t rust or crud inhibiting something, but that should not really effect timing unless again it’s not letting the bolt come back into a locked position.
 
There are a number of things that can affect lockup. Some don't seem like they would, but do, especially when there's more than one thing that is not just right.
Is it locking up late on all chambers or just some of them? If just some of them, how many and are the all adjacent to each other or randomly spaced? Have you checked the ejector rod/pin for proper alignment? Does the rod wobble? Does the pin drop into the hole in the breach face perfectly centered or does it bear to one side, up/down/left/right?
Get Kuhnhausen's S&W manual from the publisher, http://www.gunbooks.com/sw.html, or one of the retail sites like Brownell's. It is an excellent resource for anyone working on these guns.
 
It locks up late on all of them. I'll get that book thanks for recommending it I love resource material. the concerning part is that if I fire in DA while pressing against the cylinder I can actually rotate the cylinder backwards after the hammer falls, and if I don't rotate it that last millimeter to click it in while firing in SA I can rotate it backwards once the hammer falls. ejector rod is firm once the yoke is closed, it has some wiggle room when the yoke is open, I imagine the wiggle while the cylinder is open is normal it doesn't seem excessive. it appears that the pin that drops into the center of the ejector rod is centered as it pops out while closing the cylinder and then pops back into the original closed position, while firing it doesn't seem to move. If I cock the gun fast with no pressure to the cylinder it locks up fine, it's only a problem when I apply a little pressure to the cylinder or cock really slow. Maybe these problems will iron themselves out while firing, I'm just kinda nervous because I like my fingers where they are.
 
WestKentucky said:
Cylinder stop

And yes it’s very likely that the springs are tired, but that should not matter on that part if they are still working at all. My concern moreso than anything else would be cleaning it up internally and making sure there isn’t rust or crud inhibiting something, but that should not really effect timing unless again it’s not letting the bolt come back into a locked position.
Click to expand...
It doesn't have any crud in the revolver, infact it's surprisingly clean, it is bone dry. I'm gonna go through tonight and add some oil to the important moving parts like the area where the cylinder stop and frame may have some friction, the joint that the indexing arm is in, things of that nature. I think I might pick up a cylinder stop spring and S&W OEM cylinder stop from midway, it'll only be $12.50 for the 2 things.
 
dave_the_swede said:
It doesn't have any crud in the revolver, infact it's surprisingly clean, it is bone dry. I'm gonna go through tonight and add some oil to the important moving parts like the area where the cylinder stop and frame may have some friction, the joint that the indexing arm is in, things of that nature. I think I might pick up a cylinder stop spring and S&W OEM cylinder stop from midway, it'll only be $12.50 for the 2 things.
Click to expand...
This should be a hammer mounted firing pin...get one if you can. It’s a great thing to have a spare of...
 
Sounds my to me like the hand isn’t carrying up the cylinder as far as it should. The cylinder should lock up just before or as the hammer falls. On my competition Smiths this is usually the problem.
An older replacement hand will likely work. The new ones won’t as Smith changed the design when going to the MIM parts, and Smith doesn’t have any more older ones. (Or so they claim).
Brownells sells a Ron Powers replacement hand that will work, but will require a bit of fitting to work. And, it isn’t cheap...
Another trick is to lightly peen the “cams, or knobs” on the ratchet (extractor). This will usually fix one charge hole at at time (chamber).
 
dave_the_swede said:
I was thinking about that too. I hear that the hammer mounted firing pins tend to break, especially when dry firing.
Click to expand...
Yup, I had one break off while target shooting on a 629 that wasn’t very old at all. Once the firing pin breaks you're done until it’s replaced.

Good luck diagnosing and fixing the old warhorse!
 
Kunhausen has a book on the S&W revolvers, and if you can get a copy, it is worth a read. You would have to call the parts dealer to find if the cylinder hand fits a Victory Model. I would say, any cylinder hand that fits a modern S&W K frame will not fit a Victory Model as the cylinder hand is part of the hammer block.

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Suggest you take the NRA summer school revolver repair class at TSJC.

I worked on a S&W Victory that required: new center pin (the old one was extended by JB weld), barrel timing (it was offset to 11 o'clock), adjusting barrel/cylinder gap, timing (adjusting the ratchet), refinishing (milling marks removed), and finally, some milling to remove the plug that prevented the insertion of a butt swivel.

On the center pin, it took me two tries on the lathe to make it. Long skinny thing. I cut only about .010 down to size at a time. Then advanced the piece on the spindle to expose more to cut. Cutting any more than that put too much pressure on it and caused my first attempt to snap off.
 
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Slamfire said:
Kunhausen has a book on the S&W revolvers, and if you can get a copy, it is worth a read. You would have to call the parts dealer to find if the cylinder hand fits a Victory Model. I would say, any cylinder hand that fits a modern S&W K frame will not fit a Victory Model as the cylinder hand is part of the hammer block.

View attachment 808563

View attachment 808564

View attachment 808565
Click to expand...

The Victory model is the older Long Action S&W action that was changed post war to the Short Action. It appears that only the late style Long Action hands are available from numrich https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/358650 which may require fitting.

The later post-war short action type hands will not work in a victory model.
 
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