May not have to shoot

Chey,

I do not think it likely that, in the midst of a confrontation, a bad guy who is more than likely high on something, would notice a little red dot on his chest.

This is especially true if he's lit up with a weaponlight or flashlight.

Regards,
Josh

Joshua M. Smith writes:

..a bad guy who is more than likely high on something,...

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Believe it or not, the vast majority of "bad guys" on whom deadly force (in self defense) is used or threatened are not high on anything while attempting their bad deeds. Most are lucid, though many may be seeking a means to fund their next high.

That is why firearms can be used in over one million (some estimates double that figure) self-defense cases in the US each year without a shot being fired, compared to the maybe 100-200 cases in which someone is actually shot. All those lucid bad guys get real hesitant to carry on when faced with the threat of additional anatomical holes.

I believe anything that can further add to the discouragement is a good thing, and I'm sure more than one BG has been, uh, "enlightened" by the glowing red dot, and I've yet to hear of any who were further antagonized by it who would not have been so by a "bare-sighted" gun.

All that being said, I do not carry a gun so-equipped, nor do I even yet own a laser sight. I feel that, in civilian self-defense, the odds are going to be that the bad guy becomes aware of the presence of your weapon before he can be of the laser, given the rapid, confrontational nature of such scenarios.

I applaud the OP as well in reiterating that the flight of an unshot bad guy before he can commit his intended act still counts as a "win".

Tactically speaking, you would be better off with an attached light on your gun and being trained in its proper use, in addition to the laser.

''What’s the biggest room in your home? Or the longest hall? Chances are it’s 25 feet and most likely less. Reaction time at that distance is in fractions of a second.'' And at those usual distances, being trained in point shooting is adequate, as long as you can I.D. your target...

''Tactically speaking, you would be better off with an attached light on your gun and being trained...'' And instead of that tiny laser dot, you can actually SEE what your gun is pointing at in the dark. Please, don't shoot a loved one you cannot see -yet accurately- with a laser!

cheygriz said:

I think most of us pretty much adhere to the belief that we would prefer not to shoot another human if it can be safely avoided.

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Yes thank you for portraying it all as last option scenario, actually a loud BANG. BANG is bad, pitter patter of feet running away (perp) is good.

The best option is always "no shoot" in an armed confrontation. It's something every cop has done over and over - pointing a gun at someone you might be justified in shooting - but wanting compliance instead.... In 22 years (mostly on the street) I can' tell you how many times I've had a sidearm pointed at someone - and ready to shoot if needed... After my first five years - it was always a riot gun - even at bad breath ranges... In all that time I only had to fire one shot- and to this day I'd take it back (but that's looking back on it - in the same situation I'd act the same way I did back then, period...). I can also certify that it was hard to live with at the time and I very nearly resigned from police work over it... It took me a year or two to get my head back on straight afterwards (true story).

For a homeowner in an armed confrontation to make any assumptions regarding how someone will behave with a firearm pointed at them is a bad idea, period. The results in the real world are so random in a serious confrontation that I'd never bet one way or the other how it will turn out.

All you can do is be ready to defend yourself and pray that you never have to make that "shoot - don't shoot" decision since you really won't like what happens afterwards.... Defend yourself and your family if you must - but keep it basic and forget the assumptions since anyone willing to threaten your life - and has the means at hand... might not be thinking clearly at all.....

In that once in a lifetime moment - if you must... you shoot to stop the threat, period. If you come out of it okay you might want to give thanks to the man upstairs...

Light up the target while you remain in darkness. Jeff Cooper used to say that if you couldn't see your sights well enough to shoot, you couldn't see the target well enough to identify it. Fiber optic sights work very well using the light reflected off the target and his surroundings. Mounting a flashlight on your gun means you muzzle everything you illuminate including innocents like your family.

Kendahl said:

Light up the target while you remain in darkness. Jeff Cooper used to say that if you couldn't see your sights well enough to shoot, you couldn't see the target well enough to identify it. Fiber optic sights work very well using the light reflected off the target and his surroundings. Mounting a flashlight on your gun means you muzzle everything you illuminate including innocents like your family.

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Not if you use flashlight spill and not direct beam on a weapon mounted light.

I have two hand guns with Crimson Trace Lasers on them. One on my home defense pistol and one on my carry pistol. Wouldn't go without them now that I have trained with them. IMO combined with a light it's the only way to go when its completely dark. If you don't have either get yourself in a dark room where you can't see your gun or your target aim your gun at what you perceive the threat to be and turn the light on and see what you would hit instead

If I've gone so far as to arm myself, place the gun in condition zero and paint the offending bad dude in my house with a gun mounted laser, I will not be holding to fire to see if I've scared him off.

Imperfect world. The point of a laser is to be sure of your shot if you can't see your sights or use your sights. Shooting in the dark or shooting from an unconventional stance are the usual suspects. I have ZERO confidence in a laser sight scaring someone off. Even though the laser on my weapon is green. Has a rather nice alien look to it.

IMO. Best thing about a Laser on a pistol is once you've done some training. You can hit your target right handed , left handed, laying on the ground , sitting or kneeling or shooting from a myriad of positions. You don't have to have your gun lined up so you can see the sights.

Joshua M. Smith said:

Chey,

I do not think it likely that, in the midst of a confrontation, a bad guy who is more than likely high on something, would notice a little red dot on his chest.

This is especially true if he's lit up with a weaponlight or flashlight.

Regards,
Josh

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I saw your comment and I really wanted to say that it was very unlikely for a burglar to be under the influence while engaged in a burglary. I went looking for some data to support my expectation. I found an interesting article in The Journal of Drug Issues, which, without more information, seems to provide support for your statement.

73% of the sample indicated that they had used drugs and/or alcohol while engaged in a burglary at some time in the past, and many respondents reported using multiple drugs and/ or alcohol while doing so. Crack or powder cocaine and heroin were the drugs most often reportedly used by these offenders, and these substances were frequently being used in combination with other substances, including marijuana and alcohol, during burglary attempts.

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we also asked the respondents more specific questions about their substance use in the 6-month period prior to the arrest for their current offense using a 7-point Likert-type scale (0 = never used, 1 = less than 4 times a month, 2 = about once a week, 3 = 2-6 times a week, 4 = about once a day, 5 = 2-3 times a day, and 6 = 4 or more times a day). In summary, 79% had used marijuana, 55% used cocaine, 47% used crack, 30% used stimulants, 32% used heroin, 26% used methamphetamines, 27% used nonprescription methadone, 31% used barbiturates, 17% used tranquilizers, 10% used Phencyclidine, 24% used hallucinogens, and 11% used inhalants within the past 6 months. In addition, many also reported using a wider range of other drugs that included Ecstasy, bath salts, cough medicines, Oxytocin, and other prescription-based substances.

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What this study does not attempt to do is to provide any correlations with all burglaries. As such, it is not particularly useful in determining if it is likely that a particular burglar is under the influence at the time of the crime. This study is much more focused on gender difference in motivation.

This study explores substance use as a primary motivator of persistent involvement in burglary among male and female burglars

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I will also throw in some FBI data about burglary in general.

In 2015, there were an estimated 1,579,527 burglaries, a decrease of 7.8 percent when compared with 2014 data. The number of burglaries decreased 27.7 percent when compared with 2011 data and was down 28.0 percent when compared with the 2006 estimate. (See Tables 1 and 1A.)

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So, while the odds of being a victim of burglary continue to fall (unless you have been burglarized in the past year), the chances remain strong that the burglar may be a drug user. Of course, it is more likely that a burglar will ply their craft while you are not at home.

This only got about an hour of looking, but it is interesting that there is very little research on the likelihood of a non-violent criminal being under the influence at the time of the crime. This is very different than the body of research that exists for violent crimes.

So, I cannot confirm that:

Joshua M. Smith said:

who is more than likely high on something

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is true or not. It may be worthy of more reaserch at a later time.

Hasaf,

Thank you for the stats in your reply.

Here, it's more than likely that any given burglar is an addict, and that he's currently high or seeking his next fix. Having seen first-hand what addiction can do and the lengths one will go to support an addiction, I would contend that a person who is in "need" of his next fix is at least as dangerous as one who is high due to irrational decision making, but in a different way than a person who is high.

Desperation is a potent drug itself.

Regards,
Josh

I agree that we all wish to avoid a shooting situation if at all possible. That being said, if someone is in my house and it gets as far as me drawing or brandishing a firearm, they are going to have to try really hard to stay alive. There is a time for words and a time for action. If words can avoid the necessity of action, that is fine, but words stop when the shooting starts. My guns stay holstered or hidden until I have a use for them. If you see me drawing, someone has under two seconds to avoid a sucking chest wound. If they stick around long enough to see a laser, it's probably already too late for them.

The OP sounds as if he's bought into the CT ads you see in magazines, all you need is the laser, not even a gun really.

The one thing I can certainly agree with is that anytime we don't have to shoot someone who could be a threat is a good thing.

Pretty much all the rest you guys can have.

Intruder breaks into your house, injures themselves...end up in civil court.

Shoot someone inside your home...end up in civil court.

Hit the intruder with a laser in the eyes...end up in civil court.

Use whatever stops the fight...end up in civil court.

MTMilitiaman said:

I agree that we all wish to avoid a shooting situation if at all possible. That being said, if someone is in my house and it gets as far as me drawing or brandishing a firearm, they are going to have to try really hard to stay alive. There is a time for words and a time for action. If words can avoid the necessity of action, that is fine, but words stop when the shooting starts. My guns stay holstered or hidden until I have a use for them. If you see me drawing, someone has under two seconds to avoid a sucking chest wound. If they stick around long enough to see a laser, it's probably already too late for them.

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Pretty much my stance. If you like lasers, use them, I don't care for them. When I have used them on the street and training, (TASERS) I was always a bit surprised the subject didn't feel the laser dot on them, and look down at it like they do on television. Whereas you can painfully feel a bright tactical flashlight in your eyes.

If someone makes his or her way into my house, I am going to assume drug or alcohol intoxication, mental illness or a dangerous-to-life sociopath. I would prefer not having, "oh, that didn't work" steps to react to, in the problem solving ladder.
So for me, it's: Lights, (weapon mounted or other) verbal challenge...react to how he processes and handles it.

As an aiming tool they can be ok, but I wouldn't count on someone noticing that little dot on their chest during a high stress situation. I don't know about you guys but unless I look down slightly my chest is completely out of my peripheral vision anyways.