Defensive Ammunition 101

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I used to go back and forth between #4B and 00B, but have decided to split the difference and settle with #1 buck.

I stocked up on XB121 (Winchester's 2 3/4" #1B 16 pellets, 1250 fps) and have promised myself never to look back.
They pattern well from both my Mossberg 500s and my 590.

I still play around with other options, but these are my go-to for defense.
 
Yes, with 250 steel bearings a claymore mine is like a giant shotgun blast - but it still has to be aimed when put in place.... Where I was, all those years ago, mechanical ambushes were a big part of small unit stuff. No matter how many claymores in use each one had to be aimed to get results.....
 
Well, also consider that since the birdshot won't likely physically stop them, they could be shooting back as you go through those 5rds, then pause to load off the side-saddle. They may not feel pain due to drugs and adrenaline either.

Also consider, yes recovery time from buckshot recoil is more for you, but only a fraction of a second more. However, if the 00 stops the threat in 1-2rds and the birdshot doesn't at all, there was no gain in being able to shoot more of the less-effective rounds faster.

With your military background, an AR would both solve the recoil issue, have way better terminal performance than birdshot, and still penetrate less than 00 buck or any handgun round.

The AR is there as well, scatter gun stays loaded also though. I do keep my M1911A2 on the night stand as well, the idea being that my wife will take the 1911 and move to the kid's room if there is no contact in the hallway. The SG is Custer's last stand. Over penetration is a very real concern though, especially for me, the neighbors are less than twenty feet from the outside wall where contact is most likely to occur.
 
I think it is too easy to over complicate things.
Any Buck shot 00 to 4B will suffice. Both have been issue items for LEOs and military for decades.
It would be highly unlikely that a Buck shot wound at close range will not stop an attack.
 
Does the video “Bird shot in your home defense shotgun” by Paul Harrell, change anyone’s mind?
 
Just watched that video, VERY interesting, not sure I'll pull all my #1 buck out of the shottie and load with bird shot, but certainly within home defense ranges, hitting even the most determined bad guy with a load of bird shot will probably get him to consider going away and doing something else with his/her time! I would imagine the larger bird shot, turkey loads would certainly suffice in a pinch.
 
I load my Benelli M-4 with 3 inch magnum 00, 15 pellets.
Before I retired, I carried 2 3/4 inch 12 pellet loads in a Remington 1100 in the patrol car.

Certainly 9 pellet is adequate, but when something better is available, why not use it?
 
Just watched that video, VERY interesting, not sure I'll pull all my #1 buck out of the shottie and load with bird shot, but certainly within home defense ranges, hitting even the most determined bad guy with a load of bird shot will probably get him to consider going away and doing something else with his/her time! I would imagine the larger bird shot, turkey loads would certainly suffice in a pinch.


"probably" isn't good enough for me! :what:
 
Just watched that video, VERY interesting, not sure I'll pull all my #1 buck out of the shottie and load with bird shot, but certainly within home defense ranges, hitting even the most determined bad guy with a load of bird shot will probably get him to consider going away and doing something else with his/her time! I would imagine the larger bird shot, turkey loads would certainly suffice in a pinch.

Meh.

My defense isn't based on the probability the bad guy MIGHT reconsider his actions and leave. It's based on STOPPING the bad guy regardless.

If, somewhere along the line, said bad guy decides to reconsider and leave? More power to him.
 
A lot of water has flowed under the bridge since this thread began in 2011, some of whom are no longer with us, but they have left positive and insightful memories.

I still live way out in the high desert and still have the FNHSLP pictured on the first page, still loaded with Federal flight control OO buck. Outside of mountain lions and black bears, which really aren't a threat concern, are feral hogs, some very large...yup, we have them in this part of Arizona. Home invasion along the International border can, and has been a concern, more so with us older, white hair types. A red dot optic on the FNH, combined with the flight control ammunition, makes for precision shots from a shotgun at home defense conditions/ranges. 8+1 of gas operated OO buck is a sight to behold against barriers, including furniture and door frames. Haven't tried this combination against any sized hogs, but it should work well with accurate shots within range.

The biggest difference I can see between OO buck and #4 buck, besides pellet size and number, is that the flight control at home distances spreads after impact, while #4 buck spreads before impact. No way to predict, but OO buck may perform better on a lateral shot engagement angle against large felons. I'm not a large person, out of shape linebacker build, but there's a 14" distance between arm/shoulder and heart. I have #4 buck that can be used if needed, but first choice is flight control OO buck, it's earned its reputation as a fight stopper in military and LE usage, but it does have its limitations, IMHO. :)

This is the short version...
 
Does the video “Bird shot in your home defense shotgun” by Paul Harrell, change anyone’s mind?
No. I knew a guy in school who shortly after graduation stuck an 870 under his chin and fired. He had birdshot in it, and it took him two extremely agonizing weeks to die, and faceless. many ER Dr's and nurses will tell you of people walking in ambulatory after taking a load of birdshot to the thorax or abdomen, and walking out the same day. I shoot Trap with an ER nurse, and she says birdshot is the last thing she'd shoot someone with.
A box of five or ten buckshot is cheap enough to leave no excuse to use birdshot. Buy the ten round box, shoot a couple to pattern and get the feel, fill the mag tube, and you're set.
 
No. I knew a guy in school who shortly after graduation stuck an 870 under his chin and fired. He had birdshot in it, and it took him two extremely agonizing weeks to die, and faceless. many ER Dr's and nurses will tell you of people walking in ambulatory after taking a load of birdshot to the thorax or abdomen, and walking out the same day. I shoot Trap with an ER nurse, and she says birdshot is the last thing she'd shoot someone with.
A box of five or ten buckshot is cheap enough to leave no excuse to use birdshot. Buy the ten round box, shoot a couple to pattern and get the feel, fill the mag tube, and you're set.






GR
 
Back at the Academy in the early 1980s we only worked with three 12 gauge loads:
00 Buck for fightin'
Slugs for breaching
No.9 for "herding" mobs.

For targets at long range, Federal Flite control is the bees knees----uber tight patterns at 25 yards----but unlike LEOs, those aren't the SD ranges a home owner is going to encounter..
For SD I keep a box of 00 Buck on hand either 15 round Winchester Valupacks from back when Walmart had them, or Estates in a 25 round box. Both reliable and both devastating
 
I have no sympathy for thugs who rob, (delted a word for forcible, non-consensual sexual relations), maim, kill, etc, and if in stopping them I kill them, so be it. They put themselves in harms way.

The idea is to stop the attack. Sometimes killing is required to do so. It is completely up to the thug who is committing the crime. If when they are told to freeze, drop any weapon, and lay face down, they choose to do so, their lives are not in jeopardy. If instead they choose to attack, they take their health and well being into their own hands.

What reason do I need to believe that? It speaks for its self. If you believe differently, OK.

If you truly believe what you say, debate it, don't bow out. AC

[

Agree 100 Percent. How about a touch of Reality. Here is a picture of a friend of mine's Sister, Husband and kids that all went through a Horrible, Heinous death from a Home invasion of two thugs. All dead. And you want to wound or prevent death when a intrusion happens? Seriously?
The attack happened in Richmond Virginia. A number of stories about this. And to add insult, the bleeding hearts of this world, felt sorry for the Killers.

This is Reality ALL BUTCHERED


lxq59UX.jpg
 
More recent casualty was father of tree and military veteran gunned down at a local Wawa.:( He was shot for his vehicle. This was a random act that could happen to anyone.
 
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I have 7+1 of #4 Buck in mine right now. My Dad and my Uncle both use #4 Buck, so I'm simply mimicking them.
I trust them. I have two small kids in my home. Any reason that 00 Buck would be better for me?
 
The dog gave enough warning for you to get the kids into your bedroom and the shotgun out. Behind you, your spouse is calling 911 on the cell phone and holding a revolver. You're covering the top of the stairs as heavy boots clump towards the top floor.....

What your shotgun is loaded with will be of less importance than skills, training, and tactics, but ammo does count. I field a couple queries each week, so this is of great interest to a large number of people.

Here's my opinions and advice based on fact, not movies or wishful thinking....

First,some stuff to avoid.

Less lethal stuff like rubber buckshot or tear gas loads. It's regarded as Use of Deadly Force even when the police do it, and they do it when backed up by cops with real ammo in their firearms. That's in case L/L doesn't work.

There's a clue there. Use something more likely to STOP someone when that is desperately needed.

Also, avoid anything with a name like "Ultimate Deathmaster" or skulls on the box.

Don't laugh,it happens and PT Barnum was right, one IS born every minute.

Anything exotic like Dragon's Breath, bird bombs, buckshot strung together on a wire,etc.10 thin dimes would also be a bad idea. So would be reloads.

Any shooting, justified or not, will be scrutinized under a microscope by LE folks who are not necessarily your friends.

There is a case for and against using birdshot. Sometimes it works well. Usually that's at extremely close range where the wad still contains the shot,acting like a giant Glaser Safety Slug.

Sometimes it creates ghastly but shallow wounds. Since STOPPING the threat usually involves disrupting the Central Nervous System grossly, these shallow wounds do not suffice.

Bigger pellets penetrate farther. The common name for big pellets is buckshot, from its use in deer hunting. Common US sizes are 000 ( about .36 caliber), 00 (.33), 1 (.30), and so on.

4 buck(.24) is the smallest. The largest buckshot that fits in a 20 gauge is 2 buck, but 3 is more available. 1 buck is the biggest for 16 gauge.

00 is the choice for most police agencies and lots of us civilians. 8 or 9 00 pellets at a reasonable muzzle velocity has plenty of energy to transfer and a lot of frontal surface to help that happen. Even three to five 00 or 000 pellets can make the miniscule 410 into an effective close range tool.

00 also patterns tighter than the smaller stuff, all else equal. And that brings up another point.

Some folks like spread, thinking it can make up for bad aim under stressful conditions.

Others, including me, prefer a small pattern putting ALL that energy into the right place.

Forensic experts tell me that the most effective load will have all the pellets in 5-8 inches.

Of course, the biggest pellet is one bore sized chunk of lead, usually called a "Slug".

These have some use for defense but not inside. If they are designed to penetrate a deer broadside and exit, they can pose a threat of overpenetration inside a building. Few of us are that rural that an errant slug poses no threat to anyone.

Buckshot will also penetrate drywall and similar materials, but less so. It behooves us to become adept wiith our defensive tools until we can place that load where it needs to be in a very short time frame and do so without endangering innocents.

Questions, comments, rants?
I load 12 gauge shells with 25 steel flechettes. These were used in Bee Hive rounds and fired out of 105s. Due to the weight of the load I use a small amount of powder compared to OO buck ammo. They are quiet to shoot, little to no recoil and barely penetrate two layers of 1/2" drywall. The pattern at 10-12 feet is 6-8" when fired thru a 18" barrel with a modified choke.
 
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