Rem 870 12 gauge slugs vs marlin 444

Very interesting question, we need more info. What type bear? Black, grizzly, brown. What type 12ga slug? at least a dozen available. .444 is awesome, a modern " big Medicine" the .405. with proper loads the 444 is good to go.
Why the binary question, do you have both? There are several cartridges superior to the Marlin for bear.

Another soon to be locked bear thread

With the Brenneke or original Sabot slugs, the 12ga is superior.
The .444 with 265gr (a Hornady bullet, btw), is superior to the 240’s, but not by a lot. For decent performance, the .444 needs at least a 300gr bullet.

The Foster style slugs actually don’t penetrate well. Even the non-hollow Point style flatten into a “lead washer, or disc” and penetrate little.

However the Brenneke slugs have an excellent reputation. Specifically the “Black magic” slugs.

I'd feel pretty safe with a Mossberg 930 and 8 slugs semi auto.

Both will work .

I shot a 200 lb whitetail buck with a 12 ga foster Remington slugger in the front of the chest and the slug exited out the posterior orifice. The Rem Slugger 12 ga (2 3/4) foster is usually 437gr@1560 fps. 2362 ft/lbf

I think any 12 ga slug will stop a black bear.

I also shot a larger doe the exact same way with a 20 ga SST sabot. Those are 250 gr. @1800 fps. 1799 ft/lbf. That bullet ended up in the liver. The Hornady .444 load is 265gr@2400 fps. 3390 ft/lbf. If penetration is what you want my experience tells me a 12 ga foster slug will do the job better than the .444 with standard loadings. I understand fosters have terrible sectional density but I also know what I saw. I get that this is just an anecdote but it is a compelling one for me.

Rem 3" sluggers are 437gr@1760 fps. 3006 ft/lbf. That is an option. But as was mentioned, the Brennekes are the shotgun slug by which all others are measured and if I carried shotgun for critter defense that is what I would be using. Brenneke Black Magic: 3" 1 3/8 oz. 601gr@1502fps. 3011 ft/lbf.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/de...s-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5Ucf4zGTb


Nothing special, we overthink this.

jmr40 said:

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/de...s-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5Ucf4zGTb
Nothing special, we overthink this.

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Because they didn't tell us what loads/bullets were used, it didn't tell me much of anything!

DM

Slugs

Either chambering is adequate and neither is guaranteed to stop a bear instantly (nothing is). It seems to me that the handling qualities of each gun would be a good basis for choosing. Which carries most easily? Which comes up on target most smoothly and quickly? I have often wondered why the 12 ga. pump shotgun is so widely used and recommended...... and my suspicion is handling. Shotguns are often a little lighter than powerful rifles but they are almost always more natural pointers. That is what they were designed for whereas rifles are typially designed for greater precision but more deliberate/slower implementation. Classic English double rifles would likely be popular bear guns if they were cheap rather than rare and costly

I am biased towards shotguns for the simple reason that I am more familiar with them. I grew up shotgun deer hunting in MI and changed barrels on that same shotgun (Rem 870) to hunt rabbits, birds, and squirrels. I am experienced with fast point shooting at moving targets with a shotgun.

I would encourage anyone using a long gun for defense to use the most powerful gun they are comfortable with even if that is a .22. However if it is a .22, then I also encourage you to not venture out into bear country at all.

jmr40 said:

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/de...s-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5Ucf4zGTb


Nothing special, we overthink this.

Click to expand...

I know this isn't a statistically strong sample size, but what surprised me was how well 9mm seemed to stop the bear but the venerable old .357 had a spottier record. As was stated we dont know the loads used in most cases, but I thought that surely a semi jacketed wadcutter out of a .357 would fair better than 2/3.

Anyway, we do tend to overthink this stuff. Animals aren't magic bullet sponges. Can they be incredibly aggressive and dangerous? Absolutely. However, most wild animals dont like noise or pain under most circumstances.

I favor a 12 gauge for cabin use just because it's so practical for multiple needs...most being aggressive people. I dont get up north or into the mountains much, but I would be ok with a handy 12 gauge pump. That said, I might like the reach and capacity of a .44 mag out of a rifle better.

For walking in the woods I usually go with a .357 revolver with a 5.5" barrel. Not that I anticipate bear trouble, the mentioned article does make a compelling argument for higher capacity bottom feeders if I stupidly stumbled into a turn and burn situation with an animal. Thumbing back six is a tad tougher to do than dumping a magazine.

A .45-70 with a 405 grain Beartooth load would be my choice.

Fiv3r said:

I know this isn't a statistically strong sample size, but what surprised me was how well 9mm seemed to stop the bear but the venerable old .357 had a spottier record. As was stated we dont know the loads used in most cases, but I thought that surely a semi jacketed wadcutter out of a .357 would fair better than 2/3.

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The case where the .357 failed was when the guy managed to "squeeze off a shot, possibly grazing the animal". He could have done the same with a 20 mm Vulcan and produced much the same result. A hit in the eye with a .22 will stop a grizzly lots faster than grazing it with a 12 gauge.

To the OP, my choice would be the 12 gauge, but that's only because I already have one. In my opinion, based on limited experience and lots of reading the difference between a slug gun and a .444 Marlin at close range defense distances isn't going to be significant at all.

Keyfer 55 said:

What do Alaska state troopers carry??

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Glock 22's. As is the case with the rest of us, their primary concern is people, not bears.

bearcreek said:

Glock 22's. As is the case with the rest of us, their primary concern is people, not bears.

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When they WALK in bear country, they carry a pump shotgun!!

DM

Dead is Dead and with proper shot placement a 12 gauge with slugs or the 444 Marlin will do the job!

My vote is 444, normal slugs aren’t that great at penetrating. I know Alaskan troopers carry a shotgun with slugs, but that is because it’s economical and versatile to the troopers needs which are most of the time not bears.

Jessesky said:

My vote is 444, normal slugs aren’t that great at penetrating. I know Alaskan troopers carry a shotgun with slugs, but that is because it’s economical and versatile to the troopers needs which are most of the time not bears.

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Normal .444 rounds aren't that great at penetrating either...

Apparently, the shotguns must work for the Alaska State Troopers for bears, they keep carrying them as does Fish & Wildlife. "IF" they didn't work, they wouldn't carry them.

DM

DM~ said:

Normal .444 rounds aren't that great at penetrating either...

Apparently, the shotguns must work for the Alaska State Troopers for bears, they keep carrying them as does Fish & Wildlife. "IF" they didn't work, they wouldn't carry them.

DM

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They both work, but the thread is about what would work better.

The .444 is right on the heels of the 45-70. If you consider the 45-70 adequate, then I’d say the 444 would have to be as well. A 300gr .429 hardcast bullet at 2100fps, I don’t know what you’re talking about because that screams penetration to me.

Again, they both work, but the troopers gun has to be a multi-tool able to swap for buckshot for assailants. While the 444 was designed to replace a gap in 45-70 availability.

I'm talking about the fact that no one specified what loads would be used... SO, I have to assume "factory" loads...

IF, you are going to load something spl. for the .444, then you also can load up something spl. for the shotgun!

DM