Winchester Introducing a Rimless 357 Max

kozak6 said:

Hmm, a straight wall cartridge for "those" states.

Wonder if it has subsonic potential.

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If you are a hand loader, every cartridge has "subsonic" capability. My 30-06 has a load that goes 650 fps with a 120 gr cast bullet. 5 grs. of bulleseye does the trick.

I have .357 MAX in a 16" Handi rifle and a 14" Scout pistol. Both have a lot of bragging rights and I enjoy showing them off. Both are more than adequate for white tail deer and feral pugs, but the .35 remington is a hotter cartridge if you don't want to cast/reload.

Except for fidgets like myself, the cartridge has little practacability unless you live in a state like Michigan or Ind, which require straight wall rifle cases for hunting.

someguy2800 said:

Hopefully somebody will come up with some tools to expand out a 223 case without fire forming.

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I MUCH prefer fire forming brass...

It doesn't leave the brass thicker on one side of the case, like tapered expanders do, most of the time.

DM

someguy2800 said:

You guys wanting to form from 223 also need to remember 223 is tapered, so if you wanted to make it straight wall you would have to make a tapered expander that went all the way down to the web to expand the case out or you would need to fire form it. Neither the 350 legend or 357 AR max ar going to be as simple as just sizing and trimming like 300 blackout is. We will have to see what winchester comes out with for pricing on brass. You can buy brass for the 357 AR max from starline already.

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You can bet Starline will have brass for this also.

jaysouth said:

I have .357 MAX in a 16" Handi rifle and a 14" Scout pistol. Both have a lot of bragging rights and I enjoy showing them off. Both are more than adequate for white tail deer and feral pugs, but the .35 remington is a hotter cartridge if you don't want to cast/reload.

Except for fidgets like myself, the cartridge has little practacability unless you live in a state like Michigan or Ind, which require straight wall rifle cases for hunting.

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Indiana DOES NOT have a straight wall case requirement.

Ohio, Michigan and Iowa have straight wall case mandates.

.35 rem trimmed to 1.8 meets the IN PCR spec, kinda popular actually.
My avatar deer was shot w a trimmed .35 rem

someguy2800 said:

Hopefully somebody will come up with some tools to expand out a 223 case without fire forming.

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For the body, you would have to fireform because cases differ internally quite a bit. I can tell you this, from the cases I long ago necked up (posted in the first page of this thread) it takes several steps to go from .223 to .357. That’s going to be the slow part.

And just like that SAAMI accepted.

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/350-Legend-Public-Introduction.pdf

I sure hope it will one day be offered in barrels for the AR-15 platform.

LD

Loyalist Dave said:

I sure hope it will one day be offered in barrels for the AR-15 platform. LD

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Me, too. I'd like to try it.

One barrel maker I contacted has hinted that maybe by March so keep a lookout for an announcement.






(I will not release the name of the maker because it was a personal communique, not a public announcement.)

(Okay the real reason is I want to be one of the first to get a barrel.)

It’s obviously designed to go in an AR so it will be coming sooner than later.

CMMG already announced, at shotshow, a line of AR chambered in it. I think there are links somewhere up thread.

bluetopper said:

So it really is a 357 Maximum body with a 223 head, right?

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No. For all intents and purposes, the .350 Legend is a 9mm lengthened to 1.71" and given a .223 rim. It does use .357" bullets even though SAAMI specs show a .355" bore. Straightwall .223 brass probably won't work as 7.62x25mm brass made from the .223 often have bulging issues and that cartridge is slighter smaller in diameter compared to the .350 Legend.

It's never easy. Decisions, decisions, decisions.

The .357 AR Max can be made from unformed .223 brass which Starline sells as .223 Basic.

BUT

.350 Legend is SAAMI approved already.

As one who does not currently reload I am kinda looking forward to this catridge. Winchester is offering the catridge with cheaper fmj's right away, which is a big plus.

Living in upstate NY and hunting in heavy stuff I feel this round will be fantastic! 30-30 performance, with less recoil with a .35 cal bullet, and relatively cheap all sound good. Now put this in a compact bolt action with a shorter barrel and stock , and a 1-4 scope you have one seriously handy timber rifle.

This would also make for a great youth rifle. Yeah it may not have alot of long range performance, but 200 yards and closer (range most deer are taken) and you got a pretty dang good round.

As others have said the 35 rem performs better and hits harder. BUT you usually have to get a lever gun to use it. Not to mention it isn't cheap to shoot (for us non loaders). I love me a lever gun, but a compact bolt action is my preferred hunting gun.

I'm really hoping this cartridge takes off like the 450 Bushmaster did.

alfsauve said:

It's never easy. Decisions, decisions, decisions.

The .357 AR Max can be made from unformed .223 brass which Starline sells as .223 Basic.

BUT

.350 Legend is SAAMI approved already.

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That's what I'm waffling back and forth over right now.

A .35 Remington bolt-action rifle can be made from an XP100R pistol. The action is the same as the 600 series carbine. You'd better want one bad though as the pistol alone will be a grand or more.

FWIW Remington offered bolt .35 rem in the Model 7.
And 600
Neither is cheap nowadays.

Repeater .35 rem, best deal is an older 760. Nicer and newer versions are pricey though.
Paid $500 for this worn (exterior) rig (no scope). It shoots quite well
Have no need for the .350 Legend.
Find this boring old hunting platform way more fluid than AR stuff.

Might yet get a .450 BM as a thumper. If I hunt those other states req straight wall.

View attachment 826973

If one is going to build a bolt rig, why even mess with a 600?
Just get a Savage or Rem 783.
Granted, a non barrel nut rig would look nicer, but if going that route, proly can score a factory Model 7 for same $.
My guess is .350 Legend bbls will be available, so just get a .223 Model 783 and swap.

Looked at bbls a while back, .35 Rem and .300 Savage.......none. Have to get just a blank and have chambered.

FWIW I wanted a Grice Wholesale 7600 carbine in .35 rem.
Limited run.
They push a grand used when they pop up.
Pre purchase, I was allowed to shoot the gun I ended up with. 760 ADL. 1963.
Not exactly what I wanted.
But it shoots great and I know not to be stupid.
Had mag issue (.35 rem stamped mags are not cheap) and I was able to figure it out.
Reg 243 win mag works fine too.
So I have a spare.

Thinking out loud............

rebarrel Rem 7615 to .350 legend

house stark said:

If your talking about the 357 max based off of 223 case, then as I understand, you use 357 mag rifle load data at maximum for starting loads in the 357 max AR. The 357 mag data is for 35,000 psi. Where the AR platform is good for 50k. Hope that helps.

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You’ll be way low if you start with 357 mag data.

bluetopper said:

I really don’t know which forum to put this in but I’ve always liked the guys here so I’ll choose this one.
It looks like Winchester is introducing a new cartridge called the “350 Legend” To me it looks like a rimless 357 Maximum. I don’t have any of the particulars on this new cartridge as I have just seen this picture; the same one I am presenting to you guys. I would assume that Winchester has in mind of putting this new cartridge in the AR platform. I shoot the 357 Maximum in a custom 13 inch Contender handgun and can’t speak highly enough of the cartridge. Anyway I just wanted to bring this to your attention so we might chew the fat over this.

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Yes, the first thing I thought was "I wonder if they will fit an AR mag"?

Supposedly it takes its own mag, but I bet all it is is a magazine without a front guide rib. You could probably make one out of a PMAG or lancer magazine using a file like people are already doing for 300 Blackout.

The barrels are listed on cmmg's website for $200 https://www.cmmginc.com/product/barrel-sub-assm-16-mt-416ss-sbn-350-legend/. 1:16 twist. I guess that will stabilize a slow heavy bullet?
5&10 round mags are $18/each https://www.cmmginc.com/product/magazine-ar15-350-legend-10rd/

cmmg resolute release announcement at shot.

Good price on the barrel. I thought it was funny that they advertise it as the worlds fastest straight wall cartridge. That's kind of like saying we make the worlds fastest delivery van.