Is Sig p365 really actually truly safe to carry appendix?

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ATLDave said:
Here's the thing to realize: We talk a lot about how important keeping one's finger off the trigger is. And that's good. That really is important, and following that rule would have avoided about 99% of the AD/ND incidents that occur.

But. Guns are inanimate objects (as we constantly point out to the gun-control crowd). They don't generally have sensors or decision-making circuitry integrated. A trigger doesn't know what is pressing on it. The trigger only "knows" whether force is being applied - and it only "cares" about whether that force is oriented roughly-rearward, and of enough strength and travel/time to release the sear.

Things can and do get into holsters. Heck, parts of holsters can and do get into trigger guards. If you think the only thing you have to do to keep a gun from firing is "keep your bugger hook off the bang switch," you are wrong. At a minimum, you have to keep everything off the bang switch. Keys, draw strings, the edge of a holster or belt buckle - everything. This is NBD most of the time, but a little bit of confusion, distraction, close/cramped conditions, darkness, etc... can make it easy to foul up.

Recognizing this, one could adopt one of several strategies:
  • Don't rely solely on keeping-everything-off-bang-switch to prevent AD/ND's; and/or
  • Identify the times when non-finger intrusions are most likely, and don't let the muzzle cover anything important during those times; and/or
  • Get a trigger that is so long and heavy that it diminishes the chances that something might be applying force (or resisting force you are applying) without you knowing; or
  • Accept the risk and count on your future self being perfectly vigilant
Everyone has to figure out their own strategy, but recognize that forgoing the first 3 implicitly chooses the 4th. I personally choose the first two, opting to carry safety-equipped guns strong-side. Others choose differently.
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Honestly, all that is avoided by having a good holster with a clip, as most all AIWB holsters are clips.

The holster off the body, clip it on and leave it be. It's not difficult to do and is completely safe from foreign objects in the holster mattering.

Apart from that, any time I am handling a loaded firearm I am darned sure taking maximum caution, it's a loaded gun in contact distance of my own body. How people lose vigilance in that basic fact is, simply, beyond me.
 
JR24 said:
Honestly, all that is avoided by having a good holster with a clip, as most all AIWB holsters are clips.

The holster off the body, clip it on and leave it be.
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That's not avoiding my list of strategies. You're choosing the second one. You're holstering off the body, and, I presume, pointed somewhere comparatively safe. You might (or might not - I'm not expressing an opinion) be missing some other time when non-finger intrusions are likely, but you've identified holstering as such a time and you've arranged not to let the muzzle cover anything during that time.
 
JR24 said:
How people lose vigilance in that basic fact is, simply, beyond me.
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Hang around folks that carry firearms every day (particularly those who do so for a living, many of whom are not always dedicated gun people) for long enough, you'll see it regularly and be able to understand how ... Fatigue, complacency, distraction, momentary lapse of attention to detail, alcohol, boredom, feeling rushed, illness, medication, shall I go on?

Over the past forty years, I can't tell you how many clearing barrels I've seen get shot, numerous NDs on the range, in the field, in the armory, when gearing up to go on duty, even in the station, two NDs in holsters and the one I previously mentioned.

Lots of folks believe that some things will never happen to them. Some of us work to ensure those things will never happen to us, and try to eliminate the human factor as much as possible. And learn to expect unexpected things to happen -- no matter how good you think your chosen firearm or the rest of your gear is, anything can fail once.
 
As I mentioned (hate to bring it up) I spoke very briefly to my friend that was shot. He told me he as gone over every thing to fine out what happened. He tore the gun down to see if anything was wrong with the gun. He could not find anything. He told me the gun went off while it was IN the holster. Said the gun never ejected the shell casing. Every thing stayed in the holster. He said he had nothing jammed in the holster, was not wearing any clothing that could have snagged etc.
At the time I spoke with him last he was busy working and had to leave, so did not find out what holster he was using or any more details. I hope to see him this weekend. He was at a lost as to why. Hopefully he will solve how this happened. Very experienced shooter, former military, Armorer etc. I know nothing at this time other than what I have reported.
 
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I wonder how any of you folk worried about the gun breaking and discharging in the holster drive or ride on airplanes. Random, unlikely, mechanical failure is far more likely (and fatal) in something like that.

But I digress, I had the (dis)advantage of surviving a stupid ND in my youth (yes, the gun was pointed in a safe direction) as my wake up call. Never have had to worry about about complacency anymore as it's always on my mind when dealing with loaded guns.

I sometimes forget not everyone has had such a ... formative... experience to hammer proper handling home.

I dont actually carry AIWB, FWIW, uncomfortable to me.
 
JR24 said:
I wonder how any of you folk worried about the gun breaking and discharging in the holster drive or ride on airplanes. Random, unlikely, mechanical failure is far more likely (and fatal) in something like that.
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I think an analogy could be made a striker fired gun is like driving a car without a seatbelt.

You could live your whole life and never have a need for a seatbelt. You know, if you're a safe driver (my trigger finger, or my brain, or whatever is my safety) and all... However, if something goes wrong, while a seatbelt may not save you from everything, it adds a margin of safety to driving a car.

Likewise, a gun with a longer trigger travel, or a hammer, or a manual safety, could give you a larger margin of safety than a striker fired gun without a manual safety.
 
JTQ said:
I think an analogy could be made a striker fired gun is like driving a car without a seatbelt.

You could live your whole life and never have a need for a seatbelt. You know, if you're a safe driver (my trigger finger, or my brain, or whatever is my safety) and all... However, if something goes wrong, while a seatbelt may not save you from everything, it adds a margin of safety to driving a car.

Likewise, a gun with a longer trigger travel, or a hammer, or a manual safety, could give you a larger margin of safety than a striker fired gun without a manual safety.
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I disagree. I think seatbelts are like holsters, you really, really, should use one as a matter of basic safety.

Maybe ... side air bags?
 
JR24 said:
I disagree. I think seatbelts are like holsters, you really, really, should use one as a matter of basic safety.

Maybe ... side air bags?
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In the video I posted earlier about the ND, that guy had a holster. I believe he bent over and his stomach/torso pressed the gun down in the holster and possibly simply caught the trigger on the holster shape itself. Having a gun with a longer trigger travel, or a manual safety could have prevented the discharge.

Another striker fired gun in a holster that discharged...

https://www.usacarry.com/mans-leather-holster-causes-accidental-discharge/

We could say bad holsters, probably true, bad technique, probably true, but everything is additive. Choosing a striker fired gun lessens your margin for error. If you don't make a mistake, or if your gear doesn't let you down, all is good.

Though to your point, Plaxico Burris was a "no holster" guy.
 
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Well, the first video was a holstering issue, which I already advocate for holstering off the body for AIWB. You can see the dude back the gun out once before finishing, a clear sign in my mind that something wasnt right, and he should have likely reset and started over. If the video is real, I still have my doubts.

The other one is a holster fail in... how many guns in how many holsters for how many striker fired guns over the years? Its, in my mind, such a ridiculously small chance I dont worry about it.

But, again, I say if you AIWB, holster first, the clip on and theres no more risk than any other carry position.

I find myself repeating the same statements in the last thread about this and realize it's kinda not worth going over any more times. No offense intended, but I think I'll just quit while I'm... well im here anyway ;)

Appendix carry if you like, or dont, just be as safe as you can and use a good holster.
 
JR24 said:
Well, the first video was a holstering issue,...
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It wasn't a holstering issue.

It didn't fire when he holstered - that would be a holstering issue. That gun fired when he bent over. HIs body pressed the gun deeper into the holster and caused the gun to fire. It was a combination of the holster, the gun, and an activity - not holstering - that caused the gun to fire. He could have used your technique for holstering his gun and that gun would have fired with that combination of equipment and events.

From the Lucky Gunner article I posted on page 1, the quote from the late Todd Green, one of biggest proponents of AIWB carry, but he recognized and weighed various risks.

“[With] a trigger pull that is both longer and heavier than most other actions, there is far more tactile feedback that the trigger is being pulled in between the start of inadvertent unintentional movement and the Big Loud Noise. We’ve lost sight of this as a community with the prevalence of ever lighter and shorter striker fired action triggers and candidly I doubt we’ll see the pendulum swing back any time soon… The shooting community always blames the operator for every accident and never considers the role that equipment plays in making some guns more or less likely to facilitate those accidents.”
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Tommygunn said:
Out of curiosity, what is that projection on the holster, right in front of the area that covers the trigger guard of the P365? What's it's purpose?
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I believe you are referring to the strut which is supposed to help push the gun back up against your body and decrease printing.
 
Tommygunn said:
Out of curiosity, what is that projection on the holster, right in front of the area that covers the trigger guard of the P365? What's it's purpose?
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Sorry not back to you sooner but as others have responded it is called the claw, It does help move the grip closer to the body and spread the bulge of the gun somewhat. It does, by the way, do its job very well.
 
Interesting discussion here but I see no difference between a striker fired or hammer fired gun. What I do see is the value of a high quality holster and inserting the gun before clipping it to the inside of my belt.
BTW if this discussion is still concerning the P365, it is now available with a manual safety if that makes you feel better.
 
tarosean said:
Only gun truely safe for appendix carry.

View attachment 822766
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Disagree...can leak and leave awkward wet spots. Joking aside, I've carried a few different striker fired guns in the appendix position in good quality holsters and haven't had a second thought about it aside from a couple of them were physically not comfortable to carry at that location (looking at you VP9), though part of that had to do with the holster. I don't love appendix carry, but there are times where it is a necessity for me (i.e. when I'm on the road for work a lot during a given day and it's easier access from a seated in the car position). I've also carried my HK P30SK LEM in the appendix position and didn't feel any kind of way about it. I'd say any gun of good quality that is properly maintained and regularly inspected for proper function will be perfectly safe to appendix carry in a good holster (and there's no shortage of them out there), on an appendix holster, i would stick with Kydex thought as leather can degrade and break down over time.
 
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