LCP vs P3AT question

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Just about ready to pull the trigger on a Keltc 32, The idea of only a little over 6oz. I find so interesting. As most of you know I am a Pico fan. I love the modular grip. Here is one thing I did not know about Keltec. The ability to buy a new grip with assembled parts. That is a big plus over the LCP's.

Quick Overview
P-32 Grip comes with the following parts assembled in grip:

•P32-205 Magazine Catch.
•P32-208 Magazine Catch Spring.
•P32-272 Hammer Block.
•P32-273 Hammer Block Spring.
•P32-270 Hammer Block Axis.
•P32-202 Frame Pin (Quantity: 2).
And only $34.00 When I owned the LCP's (still own one) these would have been great to get. I had a lot of cracks and rail splits etc.
 
herrwalther said:
Correct. But the crux of the matter is how the patent was filed. Prince changed his name several times because the rights to his songs went to the record company. Prince wrote the songs and played the songs, but they were owned (legally) by the label. Same thing happened to George Michael for the song Freedom. Kellgren designed the P10 and the P3AT but that does not mean the patent is owned by him. Patent law is a whole nother set of snakes.
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Do you have ANY REASON to believe George Kelgren was not or is not the CEO or principal owner of either of the firms associated with the Kelgren or Kel-Tec designs? I would note, too, that Kelgren isn't a singer who needs a record company to promote and distribute his output.

Every financial source I can find says that George Kelgren is the OWNER and CEO of Kel-Tec CNC Industries. And, as best I can tell, he was also OWNER and CEO of Kelgren Inc., the company that created and produced the Kelgren P10, P12, and a few other unique designs almost 30 years ago. One of those unique designs was the Grendel P30 (and a related carbine) -- which had a 30 round .22 WMR magazine. I'm sure some of the design traits of the P30 were used when developing the PMR-30 (and the related carbine), but the PMR-30 is certainly a better design than the P30.

You seem to assume that just because Kelgren doesn't hold patents for his designs, he (or his firm) was not responsible for creating the various older Kel-Tec guns. If so, I wonder why other firms haven't sued him for stealing their designs? Hint: a lot of modern gun designs are NOT covered by patents, because these newer guns use pieces or parts of designs that were once patented but now are no longer protected. (Design patents generally only last 14 years.)

A company can take an existing (no longer patented) design, refine or subtly change it, and make it work better. Just because they've improved it doesn't necessarily make their version of an older design eligible for patent protection.
​
As is the case with many other new guns now in production, there was or is little about the Kelgren Inc, and Kel-Tec CNC Industries designs that were (or are) unique enough to qualify for patent protection. That explains WHY Ruger, SCCY and other firms are able to copy Kelgren's designs and knock off Kelgren-pattern guns without having to go through the generally painful and costly design, testing, and start-up process.

Kelgren designed a number of weapons for Husqvarna and also designed the Intratec Tec 9 for the Swedish firm Interdynamics prior to his moving to the U.S. in 1979. Those firms owned the patents for his design work. That was also the case with the work John M. Browning did for Colt and FN-Herstal. JMB designed guns for various firms over his lifetime and was well-paid for his work, but the firms he worked for owned the fruits of his labors. He was, so to speak, a "hired gun designer." Kelgren became self employed.
 
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Jeb Stuart - I got my used P32 for something like $120. It works fine. If you want one, get it. The cost isn't much. I don't know if they're all the same, but mine doesn't actually have sights. That's my only complaint.

KelTec P32

KelTec P32

 
I bought a P3AT in 2004, the Gen 1. Worst pile of junk ever made IMO. It never fed a complete magazine even after I did the “fluff and buff. It was Far too easy to hit magazine eject button when shooting. Magazine catch is really low end trash failed and far too soon. I had to take a dremel to the feed ramp because it was deformed. I probably should have sent it back to Keltec. Perhaps the Gen 2 P3AT was better but I would never own a Keltec again based on my experience. I am not alone, check out Youtube. The LCP has none of those problems and is a good little pistol. It has eaten all the ammo I have fed it.
 
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Russ said:
I bought a P3AT in 2004, the Gen 1. Worst pile of junk ever made IMO. It never fed a complete magazine even after I did the “fluff and buff. It was Far too easy to hit magazine eject button when shooting. Magazine catch is really low end trash failed and far too soon. I had to take a dremel to the feed ramp because it was deformed. I probably should have sent it back to Keltec. Perhaps the Gen 2 P3AT was better but I would never own a Keltec again based on my experience. I am not alone, check out Youtube. The LCP has none of those problems and is a good little pistol. It has eaten all the ammo I have fed it.
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Lol, sorry to disagree and and find your post full of malarkey. Yea, maybe you had a bad one, but you really need to go to the Ruger forum and do a research on the problems with LCP's. I owned a min. of 4 of them and was on the LCP forum from the first time it came out some 10 years ago. and saw all kinds of problems. And I saw many that did not. I probably shoot Pocket guns more than the average shooter and can tell you right now, the Keltec has had thousands of satisfied owners just like the LCP. To call the Keltec trash is basically calling the LCP trash. I am always amazed how one poster had a bad gun, and then goes on to bash the whole line.
No, I no longer choose the LCP as my choice for carry and I have found other Pocket guns I prefer in 380. Mostly do to shooting characteristics and not interested in aluminum sub- chassis guns in 380. That said, over 10 years of shooting pocket guns I have acquired many friends that love the Keltec 380, I have shot them many times and Never once had the Problems you are describing. And last week put 50 rounds through the Keltec P32 and no problems. In fact given the choice of what I know now, If the Keltec and LCP were the only two choices, I might even choose the Keltec 380 over the LCP due to the fact that they shoot very similar, but I can get parts cheaper, and even get a new grip like in the Post above.

If you had a bad gun, then you should have sent it to Kel-tec for a repair or replacement. If you want to bash a gun then do more homework when comparing. I do not need to go to YOUTUBE to see someone as yourself bash a gun. I have been to the range enough times to know the real truth. And by the way, I do not listen to CNN either.
 
When Rohrbaugh retired (after Remington bought his firm), Remington took over the designs. They made a number of small changes to the Rohrbaugh R380 design, and created the RM380. I picked up a RM380 recently.

I've owned a number of small .380s, from the Kelgren .380, the P3AT, to the LCP, and the RM380 is the easiest shooting one of the bunch. (At one time, a couple of years ago, I fired a Seecamp LWS-380 (I think I got the model name right...) and it was the most painful handgun-shooting experience I've had -- and I've some ugly ones. The Seecamp is a blow back design. It's actually noticeably smaller than the other small .380s. I want nothing to do with the Seecamp .380!!

Practicing isn't a painful experience with the RM380 -- it has been with any other "small" .380 I've shot. Part of that, I suspect is that it has a locked-breech design (like the P3AT and LCP, AND that it has a metal frame.) I'm sure the alloy frame makes it a bit heavier, but it's still quite light, and it rides well in a pocket holster. The only negative for me is that the mags are only 6 rounds (but that may be more of a "mental" negative than a real-world negative, as very few self-defense shooting go beyond 3-4 rounds fired by either party.) There is a mag with +1 round extension available (Galloway), and that will be my next acquisition.

Galloway has an upgrade kit for the RM380, and that will probably be my next acquisition -- new springs, several improved parts (including a different) trigger, along with the mag extension adding an extra round.
 
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Wanderling said:
I get the Kel Tec lack of brand name appeal, but - again, correct me if I am wrong - didn’t they pretty much have the only truly pocketable lightweight and affordable .380 on the market with P3AT ? All other guns in that caliber at that time which I can think of are heavier, larger, more expensive or all of it.
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Pretty much went one way or the other, heavies included Walther, seacamp, bersa, sig and colt. Kel tec was the first to go lightweight larger than the rimfire NAA, S&W’s 642 was next, then RugerLCP. I may be wrong but it was a while ago.
 
Labguy47 said:
Pretty much went one way or the other, heavies included Walther, seacamp, bersa, sig and colt. Kel tec was the first to go lightweight larger than the rimfire NAA, S&W’s 642 was next, then RugerLCP. I may be wrong but it was a while ago.
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Yep, I remember years ago when Ruger first introduced the LCP. There were many wars as which was better, the Ruger or he Keltec. Many videos comparing the two, shooting contest and on and on. When Ruger first introduced the LCP, and with their "Brand Name". not only accelerated the CCW market but seemed to explode it.

. Ruger has always been a huge player in the Advertising game, seemed to go wild with Ads on the LCP. And that is IMO the only thing Ruger has over Keltec. Every gun Mag seemed to have a article and every magazine full of advertisements from Ruger. Like Ruger or Hate them, you have to give them points for marketing savvy. Make a inexpensive gun, and spend millions on ads. The gun stores must have made a killing. So many women loved the cute little gun. Ruger was selling these inexpensive little guns that the majority of the owners probably would not shoot more than 100 rds a year. Of course the cuteness wore off real quick on the first range visit. Extreme Discomfort and High Five Slap made these little guns most likely never need a repair for the Average owner. Why, simply because so many people would not shoot them on a regular basis.
And of course the gun mags quickly picked up on this and would always proclaim them to be just Gut guns, therefore no need to shoot them often. A fallacy that exist to this day.

Gun rags and advertising has always reminded me of the famous quote. "The best Judge money can buy". Tell people anything and do it often enough, do it over and over and they will believe anything.
 
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Jeb Stuart said:
Yep, I remember years ago when Ruger first introduced the LCP. There were many wars as which was better, the Ruger or he Keltec. Many videos comparing the two, shooting contest and on and on. When Ruger first introduced the LCP, and with their "Brand Name". not only accelerated the CCW market but seemed to explode it.

. Ruger has always been a huge player in the Advertising game, seemed to go wild with Ads on the LCP. And that is IMO the only thing Ruger has over Keltec. Every gun Mag seemed to have a article and every magazine full of advertisements from Ruger. Like Ruger or Hate them, you have to give them points for marketing savvy. Make a inexpensive gun, and spend millions on ads. The gun stores must have made a killing. So many women loved the cute little gun. Ruger was selling these inexpensive little guns that the majority of the owners probably would not shoot more than 100 rds a year. Of course the cuteness wore off real quick on the first range visit. Extreme Discomfort and High Five Slap made these little guns most likely never need a repair for the Average owner. Why, simply because so many people would not shoot them on a regular basis.
And of course the gun mags quickly picked up on this and would always proclaim them to be just Gut guns, therefore no need to shoot them often. A fallacy that exist to this day.

Gun rags and advertising has always reminded me of the famous quote. "The best Judge money can buy". Tell people anything and do it often enough, do it over and over and they will believe anything.
Click to expand...

I think the level of discomfort when shooting LCP has a lot to do with hand size.

I don't have huge hands, and I have zero discomfort shooting LCP. I can get a decent grip on it without any Hogue sleeves or such.

However, I can see how someone with large hands just wouldn't be able to get a good grip on it, and the gun would move around inside their palm with every shot, beating the crap out of it.

This is not a range gun, it doesn't like to run hot and dirty, and I always seem to get feeding and accuracy issues after 30-50 rounds, depending on how fast I shoot it. But I really don't need to go through any more than 3-4 mags to make sure I can still hit the center of the target at 15 ft.

It's a great gun for what it is - a cheap, reasonably reliable, reasonably accurate, very compact self defense weapon for close range. It's not intended for extended target practice sessions, and I'd say for a gun that's supposed to be used at very short distances, it's surprisingly accurate.
 
Jeb Stuart said:
Lol, sorry to disagree and and find your post full of malarkey. Yea, maybe you had a bad one, but you really need to go to the Ruger forum and do a research on the problems with LCP's. I owned a min. of 4 of them and was on the LCP forum from the first time it came out some 10 years ago. and saw all kinds of problems. And I saw many that did not. I probably shoot Pocket guns more than the average shooter and can tell you right now, the Keltec has had thousands of satisfied owners just like the LCP. To call the Keltec trash is basically calling the LCP trash. I am always amazed how one poster had a bad gun, and then goes on to bash the whole line.
No, I no longer choose the LCP as my choice for carry and I have found other Pocket guns I prefer in 380. Mostly do to shooting characteristics and not interested in aluminum sub- chassis guns in 380. That said, over 10 years of shooting pocket guns I have acquired many friends that love the Keltec 380, I have shot them many times and Never once had the Problems you are describing. And last week put 50 rounds through the Keltec P32 and no problems. In fact given the choice of what I know now, If the Keltec and LCP were the only two choices, I might even choose the Keltec 380 over the LCP due to the fact that they shoot very similar, but I can get parts cheaper, and even get a new grip like in the Post above.

If you had a bad gun, then you should have sent it to Kel-tec for a repair or replacement. If you want to bash a gun then do more homework when comparing. I do not need to go to YOUTUBE to see someone as yourself bash a gun. I have been to the range enough times to know the real truth. And by the way, I do not listen to CNN either.
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Jeb, no need for the personal insults. I just posted my my personal opinion on
The Gen 1 P3AT from my experience. I did a lot of work trying to make that pistol reliable to no avail and it was frustrating to say the least. I found their quality control to be lacking to let a gun out of the door like I got. The Gen 1 didn’t last long for good reason. What in the hell does CNN have to do with anything? No one watches it. I never insulted you personally did I? Sorry you’re having a bad day. Relax, life’s too short to get so worked up.
 
Russ said:
Jeb, no need for the personal insults. I just posted my my personal opinion on
The Gen 1 P3AT from my experience. I did a lot of work trying to make that pistol reliable to no avail and it was frustrating to say the least. I found their quality control to be lacking to let a gun out of the door like I got. The Gen 1 didn’t last long for good reason. What in the hell does CNN have to do with anything? No one watches it. I never insulted you personally did I? Sorry you’re having a bad day. Relax, life’s too short to get so worked up.
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Not the least bit worked up other than you calling the gun "Trash". Felt like I needed to respond to that statement. You gave your opinion, I gave mine. CNN can be very similar to the internet videos. A lot of trash on both. Have a nice day my friend.
 
I also chose to go with an LCP after looking over both offerings. The LGP wasn't without its miss-givings either. Mine was a Gen1 and it needed a fluff and buff to feed reliably and a 12lb return spring for the same reason. After that I didn't have a lick of problems, after break in ~ 300 rounds were sent down range. My weak hand has a short index finger so I went with an adjustable trigger from RTK (RTK's Sweet Pea Trigger). Adjusting the trigger take up out of the trigger my "short" finger could reach the trigger comfortably without shifting the gun around in my hand like I had to do prior to the upgrade. I caught a ton of flack for putting in an adjustable trigger into a defense gun but it now works for me. No regrets on my part... RTK sold a lot of these triggers so I'm sure it worked well for others too.
4aXfMfAl.jpg
 
Indigo22 said:
I also chose to go with an LCP after looking over both offerings. The LGP wasn't without its miss-givings either. Mine was a Gen1 and it needed a fluff and buff to feed reliably and a 12lb return spring for the same reason. After that I didn't have a lick of problems, after break in ~ 300 rounds were sent down range. My weak hand has a short index finger so I went with an adjustable trigger from RTK (RTK's Sweet Pea Trigger). Adjusting the trigger take up out of the trigger my "short" finger could reach the trigger comfortably without shifting the gun around in my hand like I had to do prior to the upgrade. I caught a ton of flack for putting in an adjustable trigger into a defense gun but it now works for me. No regrets on my part... RTK sold a lot of these triggers so I'm sure it worked well for others too.
View attachment 830482
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Nice finish on your LCP, what kind is that? Looks great. I still have a LCP, do not shoot it much any more, but want to keep it in my collection. Thinking about having it Cherokoted
I think the Gen 1 with the sweet Pea trigger is one of the best of the LCP's..
 
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