45acp Neck Tension with R&P brass

Status
Not open for further replies.
CrankyCraig

CrankyCraig

Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2016
Messages
243
Location
Texas,USA
So I got a ton of R&P 45 acp brass and while loading some 230grain Montana gold FMJ for a range trip I noticed when seating a few rounds which were R&P brass that it felt waaaay to easy.

So I pushed a few rounds into the bench and the bullet slid into the cases.

So, I checked the previous 10 rounds of mixed brass the Winchester & Federal were fine. But the Remington & a couple Hornady failed the push test.

Needless to say I pulled them. I’m using a Lee carbide 4 die set I bought about 5 years ago.

Should I replace the sizing die with a U die or perhaps another brand. I’ve only been reloading for about 6 years and this is the first time I’ve had this issue.

I reduced the expansion and loaded a few more Remington cases and they was no real improvement.

I’m kinda stuck so any advice would greatly be appreciated.
 
I don't have that problem with RP brass since I switched to Dillon dies, a Lee U die should solve your problem. Before I changed die brands, I saved RP brass for cast bullet loads. The .001 oversize on cast bullets took care for the neck tension problem. BTW, I was originally using RCBS carbide dies so let's not start a Lee bash thread.
 
Either dump those cases or get an undersized sizing die.

I suppose it’s possible your Lee carbide die is out of spec/oversized. Have you measured a sized case at the mouth. If I remember, the outside diameter of a sized case mouth should be .472” (look it up to be sure!)

If it’s larger, you may have an oversized die and Lee will replace it.
 
I had the same issue with my first .45 ACP sizer, it did not size the thinner RP brass enough. It was replaced with another one that did the opposite, man was it tight.

So I bought another brand, and it was perfect, but after about a year the carbide ring came out. So I glued it back in and it worked for awhile, but came out again.

So I called and had it replaced, but that one left a sharp edge on the brass near the bottom, and they told me I was sizing wrong. Weird, been doing it that way for a couple of decades or so.

So I bought a third brand sizer. Near perfect, and hasn't broken after a number of years.

Your sizer is too loose, or your expander is too big. If it is only RP brass that has issues, it's likely the sizer is too loose. ID of the carbide ring is too big for the thinner RP brass.
 
Your sizing die is not set up correctly. I buy once fire range brass by the thousands. I don't specify the brand. Never had the need to.
 
I am talking 45acp and 9mm. Agreed R&P brass feels a little softer through the reloading process (delightfully so) but still holds it's own when the round is completed.

Being able to push a bullet deeper into a case on a bench after it has been reloaded is something more serious than the brand of brass.
 
I've never had an issue with neck tension with R-P 45 ACP cases. But if the sizer die or the expander are too big, then neck tension will not be enough.

It seems manufacturers these days are less concerned about the tolerance of their dies than in the 1980s or 1990s. While not 45 ACP dies, I've rejected more dies in recent years for not sizing the cases correctly than when I got started in reloading back around 1980.

Just a note, I'm only talking a die or two that I've rejected but I went for years without any issue with the dies I bought. I have dies to load something north of 30 different cartridges between rifle and handgun.
 
frogfurr said:
Your sizing die is not set up correctly. I buy once fire range brass by the thousands. I don't specify the brand. Never had the
Click to expand...

If that’s the case why does it not happen with the federal , PMC, Speer & Winchester?

I run them through my colt & my Sig which is a crazy tight next to no lead chamber?
 
Walkalong said:
I had the same issue with my first .45 ACP sizer, it did not size the thinner RP brass enough. It was replaced with another one that did the opposite, man was it tight.

So I bought another brand, and it was perfect, but after about a year the carbide ring came out. So I glued it back in and it worked for awhile, but came out again.

So I called and had it replaced, but that one left a sharp edge on the brass near the bottom, and they told me I was sizing wrong. Weird, been doing it that way for a couple of decades or so.

So I bought a third brand sizer. Near perfect, and hasn't broken after a number of years.

Your sizer is too loose, or your expander is too big. If it is only RP brass that has issues, it's likely the sizer is too loose. ID of the carbide ring is too big for the thinner RP brass.
Click to expand...

I have a another Expander / Powder through Die for 45acp I can give a shot. What your saying about the carbide ring makes sense.

I got 1000’s if these cases given to me clean I’m sure going to try to figure this out. Thank You for taking the time to respond to me.
 
Remington , Agullia , PMC and a few others have much thinner case walls then Fed , Win Starline etc . You not only will have less bullet hold , the crimp it self will be less as well compounding the issue . So your thicker walled cases will not only hold the bullet tighter . When you apply the crimp to those thicker walled cases the mouth will bite into the bullet a little more .

Getting a die that sizes the thinner case down more only means the thicker cases are gripping the bullet even more and you still will have the inconsistent crimp . This whole thin walled thick walled cases drove me nuts when I first started loading handgun cartridges . I had been loading match grade rifle cartridges for years before I started loading handgun rounds . The first thing everyone seemed to say was you don't need to separate by headstamp your 9mm , 45acp , 38/357 etc . First thing I noticed was all the inconsistencies mentioned above . After loading very consistent rifle rounds for years . My head could not get over how I could feel I was loading inconsistent handgun rounds . It drove me nuts until I just bit the bullet and started separating by headstamp . If I'm loading real crappy rounds I'll use mixed RP , Agilliia , PMC cases but I separate all the Fed , Win and other thicker walled cases . I have a general list as to which cases are generally what .
 
CrankyCraig said:
If that’s the case why does it not happen with the federal , PMC, Speer & Winchester?

I run them through my colt & my Sig which is a crazy tight next to no lead chamber?
Click to expand...

Forgive me. But I am not the one seeking the advice. As far as crazy tight chambers I run through CZ's and Colt's by the thousands. Both 9mm and 45acp.

I will not, and never will, purchase and/or own a reloading set up that can't handle typical range brass. There is some really rascally brass out there. R&P brass certainly is not one of them.
 
Last edited:
frogfurr said:
Forgive me. But I am not the one seeking the advice. As far as crazy tight chambers I run through CZ's and Colt's by the thousands. Both 9mm and 45acp.

I will not, and never will, purchase and/or own a reloading set up that can't handle typical range brass. There is some really rascally brass out there. R&P brass certainly is not one of them.
Click to expand...

No worries just trying to understand why it’s not an issue with the other stuff? Please don’t take it any other way.

Just seems odd. What dies do you use?

What is it I could possibly be doing for it to be the sizing die not set correctly? I’ve only loaded around 4-5 k 45 plated & FMJ so trust me I’m all ears for any kind of solution.
 
CrankyCraig said:
R&P 45 acp brass ... 230grain Montana gold FMJ ... I pushed a few rounds into the bench and the bullet slid into the cases.

I checked the previous 10 rounds of mixed brass the Winchester & Federal were fine. But the Remington & a couple Hornady failed the push test ... using a Lee carbide 4 die set
Click to expand...
I too reload with Lee carbide dies but do not use the FCD (I seat/taper crimp with the same die) and do not experience the neck tension issue you are having, even with RP brass.

Just to rule out post-sizing by 4th FCD (which could reduce neck tension), could you remove 4th FCD and seat/taper crimp with 3rd combo seat/taper crimp die?

If neck tension issue goes away without using FCD, keep reloading without FCD.

If neck tension issue continues, it's something else.

If thickness of case wall is an issue, I guess I could do another myth busting thread on 45ACP case wall thickness and neck tension/bullet setback like I did for 9mm brass - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4
 
Last edited:
drband said:
Either dump those cases or get an undersized sizing die.

I suppose it’s possible your Lee carbide die is out of spec/oversized. Have you measured a sized case at the mouth. If I remember, the outside diameter of a sized case mouth should be .472” (look it up to be sure!)

If it’s larger, you may have an oversized die and Lee will replace it.
Click to expand...
drband said:
Either dump those cases or get an undersized sizing die.

I suppose it’s possible your Lee carbide die is out of spec/oversized. Have you measured a sized case at the mouth. If I remember, the outside diameter of a sized case mouth should be .472” (look it up to be sure!)

If it’s larger, you may have an oversized die and Lee will replace it.
Click to expand...

I’m going to Load that set of dies on my turret press tomorrow and measure it with a Winchester and The R&P I should of done that previously.

Since I had plenty of other brass I went with that to be safe when it occurred .

I shot the stuff I had loaded this weekend and was going to load more tomorrow but figured I’d post my problem here as I’ve always received sound advice and learned a good deal.

Thanks for taking the time to help.
 
bds said:
I too reload with Lee carbide dies but do not use the FCD (I seat/taper crimp with the same die) and do not experience the neck tension issue you are having, even with RP brass.

Just to rule out post-sizing by 4th FCD (which could reduce neck tension), could you remove 4th FCD and seat/taper crimp with 3rd combo seat/taper crimp die?

If neck tension issue goes away without using FCD, keep reloading without FCD.

If neck tension issue continues, it's something else.
Click to expand...

I never even thought about that. I will definitely try that tomorrow evening/Monday morning. Thank you.
 
CrankyCraig said:
Needless to say I pulled them. I’m using a Lee carbide 4 die set I bought about 5 years ago.
Click to expand...

One of the other things I'm sure you've noticed when using those dies is the resistance or lack of when those thin walled cases enter the crimp die . My thicker walled cases hang up a bit as they pas through the carbide ring at the bottom of the crimp die likely swaging the cartridge down a bit . While the thinner cases seem to slip right through with very little resistance . As stated above , If swaged enough the brass may spring back while the lead says swaged resulting in less bullet hold . I only get this with my 45 acp set of Lee dies . My 9mm and 38/357 crimp dies don't have the same issue . Now this could be that my specific 45acp crimp die has an undersized carbide ring in it , I'm not sure how many others have this issue . I've heard Lee's CC is not the best and under sized rings have been noted in the past .

I should add that even though I've noticed these issues , I've generally had adequate bullet hold regardless of the cases used .
 
Last edited:
Metal God said:
My thicker walled cases hang up a bit as they pas through the carbide ring at the bottom of the crimp die likely swaging the cartridge down a bit . While the thinner cases seem to slip right through with very little resistance
Click to expand...
If this was the case, problem would be worse for thicker walled cases and OP is not having issue with Winchester/Federal cases but having issue with RP/some Hornady cases.

That's why I asked OP to reload some test rounds without FCD to rule that out.

Interested in what OP finds out without using FCD as I do not use the FCD with my Lee dies and I can't push bullets into the case even with .451" sized jacketed/plated bullets.
 
Another thing I am curious is OP is having this new problem after 6 years of reloading.
CrankyCraig said:
I pushed a few rounds into the bench and the bullet slid into the cases.

I’ve only been reloading for about 6 years and this is the first time I’ve had this issue.
Click to expand...
CrankyCraig , did anything new change like die adjustment, new bullet?

I am assuming you have been using the FCD the past 6 years?
 
bds said:
Another thing I am curious is OP is having this new problem after 6 years of reloading.

CrankyCraig , did anything new change like die adjustment, new bullet?

I am assuming you have been using the FCD the past 6 years?
Click to expand...

Yes it was the first set of Dies I bought. Which is what really seemed strange.

The bullet is new but they measured fine ( RMR / Montana gold? Looking 230gr FMJ)

I tried an Xtreme 200 grain plated round nose bullet I’ve loaded about 1k of and a few Hornady 230 gr FMJ I had leftover and had the same issue.

My experience is limited but I currently load for 9mm , 40 S&W , 38spcl , 357 & 45 Colt.

Never had an issue like this before but I learned what I know from reading the Lee, Hornady & Speer manuals. I really didn’t have the luxury of someone showing me. Lol so it’s quite possible I’m missing something.

The only issues I had before was getting 200grain lead SWC to feed in Sig nightmare 1911. So I just use them in my colt commander.

As soon as I get a chance I’m going to try what you suggested and seat and crimp in one operation to see if that cures it. I did have a couple Hornady cases I could push back some on the bench but not as bad.

After I pulled those I tried some Winchester and Federal and had no issues.

loaded 200 & checked them all buy pushing them on the bench I measured them with calipers be fore and after and had zero issues. I did adjust the seating die since the bullet was a different brand.

The FCD I adjusted it by putting the round in the shell holder and raising it into the die. Once I had it into the die I held it there and slowly turned the FCD knob until I felt it just make contact with the round.

I then lowered the ram and gave the dies knob a 1/2 turn clockwise.

Soon as I get some time I’ll try what you have suggested as well as measure the expander plug against another as well as measure some sized cases from that set to see what it the diameter is.

I really appreciate you as well as the others taking time to Share your knowledge.
 
Last edited:
frogfurr said:
Forgive me. But I am not the one seeking the advice. As far as crazy tight chambers I run through CZ's and Colt's by the thousands. Both 9mm and 45acp.

I will not, and never will, purchase and/or own a reloading set up that can't handle typical range brass. There is some really rascally brass out there. R&P brass certainly is not one of them.
Click to expand...
9MM is a tapered case and the sizer is indeed more critical in how it is set up. It generally needs to be all the way down, and often even contacting the case while actually sizing a case taking press flex into consideration. If it isn't, it doesn't always size the upper portion that holds the bullet as well. The better 9MM sizers have taper to them.

The .45 ACP is a straight case and as long as the sizer is a reasonable way down over the case it will be fine for neck tension.

I did not accept a sizer die "that can't handle typical range brass" either, and did something about it.

The thinner RP .45 ACP brass comes up here from time to time with the same issue the OP is having. They have sizers that work fine with the thicker brass, but not the thinner RP brass. It only takes a couple thousandths to make a difference if it falls just right.

The OP may have a different issue going on, and obviously you have never experienced it (you have a good die set that works well with all wall thicknesses), but it is a condition that shows up here repeatedly.

frogfurr said:
Being able to push a bullet deeper into a case on a bench after it has been reloaded is something more serious than the brand of brass.
Click to expand...
Correct, he has a die issue. It cannot handle the thinner RP brass. The sizer is OK with the thicker stuff, but not the thinner stuff. This can go unnoticed until the user gets some thin brass.
 
Last edited:
Incorrect use of the FCD can also cause issues (Even correct use sometimes), and if the OP barely has enough neck tension to start with because of the thin RP brass, that could be causing issues. A "taper" crimp on .45 ACP should remove the belling on the shortest cases and no more. Many people over crimp thinking they get better neck tension, but with auto calibers like .45 ACP use neck tension to hold the bullet, while the taper "crimp" merely removes the bell for a good fit and good feeding.
Berrys 230 Gr RN .45 ACP Crimp Pic a @ 75%.JPG
 
I have two sets of Lee 45 ACP dies and never had a problem with RP brass not being sized down enough with either of them. Since it just cropped up after years it might be a problem with the OP having changed the amount he expands the case mouth now. Lee dies are easy to move settings when installing them if you are not paying attention. That and thin brass might be the cause. You might also look for brass buildup on the expander button and clean it if needed. Another thought is did you get some newer brass that may be even thinner than what you have used for years?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

M
  • Locked
40s&w R-P brass -- is there a resizing die that will work?
Replies
1
Views
557
Walkalong
Walkalong
E
  • Locked
Anybody have trouble with Remington brass?
2
Replies
26
Views
3K
Steve in PA
Steve in PA
JO JO
  • Locked
R P Brass
2
Replies
41
Views
2K
Waywatcher
W
S
  • Locked
9mm Blazer and FC brass -- poor neck tension and set-backs .
2
Replies
31
Views
3K
PO2Hammer
PO2Hammer
H
  • Locked
neck tension issues
Replies
17
Views
615
Raymond Bob
R
Back
Top