45acp Neck Tension with R&P brass

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I sort out all my RP brass out, for it has a history of being thin and soft. Been doing this for decades, for it's nothing new. It's fine if your going to shoot over size lead bullets. The bullet will make up for the 0.001" lost in the brass. I also don't like the way RP over cut/bevels the primer pockets either. Reduces support which I have had primers blow due to this if I use softer cap primers.
 
I just washed about 500 RP cases so this thread had me interested!! I have the MG 230 JHP but they seem to seat ok, and I thumped (technical term?) one on the bench but there was no setback and that was before the FCD bell removal. I then measured the bearing surface with the calipers and it showed .450 - strange, but then I mic'ed it and the very base of the bullet is .4510. Up a few thousands from the base and it's back to .4500 - I guess I was expecting the majority of the bearing surface to be .4510. Since the base of the bullet is deepest in the case I'd expect that to dictate setback.
Since the OP had Win and Fed HS exhibit good behavior, it's probably not the bullet size but it might be worth a quick check.

I did come across an article which I'll link here, and I'll quote the one section that had me interested in the sense it's a quick litmus test to see if your sizer or expander might be an issue.

http://www.massreloading.com/setback.html
"Your dies are out of spec
This is an unlikely cause, but if you are using a set of dies for the first time, and your cartridges fail the bench test, it's worth spending a few minutes to check the dies (I've ended up with three sets that were out of spec in the last ten years). Run a case through the sizing die and measure the inside diameter. It should be no larger than 0.002" under the bullet diameter. In other words, if you're loading .45 ACP with a 0.451" diameter bullet, the inside diameter of the case should measure no larger than 0.449". Next, run a sized case through your expander die and measure the inside diameter. Again, the ID should be no larger than 0.002" under the bullet diameter. If the dies are out of spec, there's no easy way to fix them. Contact the manufacturer for a replacement. "

I tried this and my dies were at least .002 under. They're vanilla RCBS carbide, probably 20 years old.
 
The Lyman sizer I am using will accept a .465 pin gauge (+0.0/-.0002), but not a .466.

My Redding "M Die" type expander is .448.

My original RCBS sizer would accept a .462 pin gauge. Talk about the coke bottle affect. Yikes.

I also have a .463 RCBS sizer that works well, just a little tighter than necessary.
 
FROGO207 said:
I have two sets of Lee 45 ACP dies and never had a problem with RP brass not being sized down enough with either of them. Since it just cropped up after years it might be a problem with the OP having changed the amount he expands the case mouth now. Lee dies are easy to move settings when installing them if you are not paying attention. That and thin brass might be the cause. You might also look for brass buildup on the expander button and clean it if needed. Another thought is did you get some newer brass that may be even thinner than what you have used for years?
Click to expand...

Yeah it’s newer brass previously I just shot the older Winchester , Federal & some Speer I had around my friend would give me on our range trips since he doesn’t reload. When I set that up either early Monday or Tuesday I’ll definitely take the plug out and look at it.

With all the information I gave gotten I don’t see how I won’t get this figured out. Thank you.
 
Blue68f100 said:
I sort out all my RP brass out, for it has a history of being thin and soft. Been doing this for decades, for it's nothing new. It's fine if your going to shoot over size lead bullets. The bullet will make up for the 0.001" lost in the brass. I also don't like the way RP over cut/bevels the primer pockets either. Reduces support which I have had primers blow due to this if I use softer cap primers.
Click to expand...

Lol well I’m definitely going to separate it from the rest that’s for darn sure. Maybe use it for SWC only if I cannot get the FMJ to work out. Thanks
 
lordpaxman said:
I just washed about 500 RP cases so this thread had me interested!! I have the MG 230 JHP but they seem to seat ok, and I thumped (technical term?) one on the bench but there was no setback and that was before the FCD bell removal. I then measured the bearing surface with the calipers and it showed .450 - strange, but then I mic'ed it and the very base of the bullet is .4510. Up a few thousands from the base and it's back to .4500 - I guess I was expecting the majority of the bearing surface to be .4510. Since the base of the bullet is deepest in the case I'd expect that to dictate setback.
Since the OP had Win and Fed HS exhibit good behavior, it's probably not the bullet size but it might be worth a quick check.

I did come across an article which I'll link here, and I'll quote the one section that had me interested in the sense it's a quick litmus test to see if your sizer or expander might be an issue.

http://www.massreloading.com/setback.html
"Your dies are out of spec
This is an unlikely cause, but if you are using a set of dies for the first time, and your cartridges fail the bench test, it's worth spending a few minutes to check the dies (I've ended up with three sets that were out of spec in the last ten years). Run a case through the sizing die and measure the inside diameter. It should be no larger than 0.002" under the bullet diameter. In other words, if you're loading .45 ACP with a 0.451" diameter bullet, the inside diameter of the case should measure no larger than 0.449". Next, run a sized case through your expander die and measure the inside diameter. Again, the ID should be no larger than 0.002" under the bullet diameter. If the dies are out of spec, there's no easy way to fix them. Contact the manufacturer for a replacement. "

I tried this and my dies were at least .002 under. They're vanilla RCBS carbide, probably 20 years old.
Click to expand...

I will definitely check this out thank you very much for sharing.
 
FROGO207 said:
These things usually boil down to some small thing that you missed when setting up the dies this last time or the new brass is different. Good thing you caught it before the dreaded bullet set back gremlin reared its dangerous head.
Click to expand...

Yeah no kidding, I'm just glad I caught it early and pulled them and nobody got injured. I work crazy hours but I’ll get to the bottom of it I got a lot of great information to try when I get some time to take my time and sort it all out.

Appreciate your help
 
Rem 45 acp not only is measurably thinner, it loses most of what little elasticity it has on the first firing and is shorter than other brands. At least last time i measured it. Am avoiding it for any moderate to full powered jacketed rounds, and use a Lee u die, reduced diameter exp plug to load lead target rounds.

Back when Rem was only major source for 185 plus p, experienced their factory 185 plus p loads suffering significant setback using the slide release to load.

No problems with the Rem 9mm brass, but it seems to split earlier.
 
I can feel the difference when sizing cases with in the same head stamp. I now size the cases and make three groups, the easy to resize goes in the scrap bin the other two groups are kept separate and reloaded.
This has made a noticeable difference in consistency for me.
 
I had a similar experience with Remington .45 ACP brass many years ago. When resizing a largish lot of mixed headstamps I noticed that some cases needed much less force on the press handle than others. Turned out that the 'easy' cases were all Remingtons. I posted about it on some forum or other and all the responses I remember receiving agreed that Remington .45 brass is softer than others'.
 
zeke said:
Rem 45 acp not only is measurably thinner, it loses most of what little elasticity it has on the first firing and is shorter than other brands. At least last time i measured it. Am avoiding it for any moderate to full powered jacketed rounds, and use a Lee u die, reduced diameter exp plug to load lead target rounds.

Back when Rem was only major source for 185 plus p, experienced their factory 185 plus p loads suffering significant setback using the slide release to load.

No problems with the Rem 9mm brass, but it seems to split earlier.
Click to expand...
CrankyCraig said:
So I got a ton of R&P 45 acp brass and while loading some 230grain Montana gold FMJ for a range trip I noticed when seating a few rounds which were R&P brass that it felt waaaay to easy.

So I pushed a few rounds into the bench and the bullet slid into the cases.

So, I checked the previous 10 rounds of mixed brass the Winchester & Federal were fine. But the Remington & a couple Hornady failed the push test.

Needless to say I pulled them. I’m using a Lee carbide 4 die set I bought about 5 years ago.

Should I replace the sizing die with a U die or perhaps another brand. I’ve only been reloading for about 6 years and this is the first time I’ve had this issue.

I reduced the expansion and loaded a few more Remington cases and they was no real improvement.

I’m kinda stuck so any advice would greatly be appreciated.
Click to expand...


Well I’m sorry it took so long to get back to this but life had other plans and health scares in the family and other crazy things along with working waaaay to much put thing on the back burner.

After trying several different things I gave a Lee U Die a shot.

I just finished testing six of the Remington nickel plated cases and I’m happy to say I’m no longer seeing any set back and believe me I’m press checking these into a solid wood bench like a silver back gorilla.

Amazing what .002-.003 can do for neck tension. The powder through expander, seating & FCD dies are the same as before. After getting some sleep I’ll measure the cases from each sizing die to see where I end up that should give some more clarity. Calipers will have to do until I get a micrometer.

I’ll measure them after expanding too.
I greatly appreciate everyone’s efforts to help me out. I really mean that.
 
243winxb said:
If i owned a lot of it, i may try the Lee U die.
Click to expand...
CrankyCraig said:
I gave a Lee U Die a shot.
Click to expand...

CrankyCraig said:
Amazing what .002-.003 can do for neck tension
Click to expand...
On the 45 acp, neck tension can be any where from almost zero to over 100 pounds to move a .452" diameter cast bullet. Same die, different brass. This is why i no longer use mixed range brass for accuracy.

After the expander is removed from the case, brass will spring back at different rates, between brands. This happens because brass has a memory. It wants to return to its orginial shape.
 
Last edited:
Well I measured the cases before sizing they averaged right about 0.475. After resizing in the standard lee carbide resizing die I got roughly 0.466” with the Lee carbide U die I got 0.463
After expanding the OD measured 0.470. Measurements are kinda rough since I only have calipers not a 0-1 micrometer.

Everything seems fine now as I loaded up 24 with 230gr RMR FMJ ‘s with 5 grains of 231 @ 1.250 to take to the range with me tomorrow. I press checked all and they didn’t move at all. :)
 
Remington.45 acp brass is thinner walled, a .470 crimp on all other brass is right on, Remington not so much. That's my conclusion anyway . hdbiker
 
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