You might want to rethink your Home Defense gun

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Home invasion has, for sure, mutated since "Home Alone". My worn and my "ready" semi pistols are first contact firearms, my fallback is my suppressed 16 inch AR, with standard capacity 30 round mags.

GunnyUSMC said:
I will say that the home owner put up one hell of a fight.
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I wonder what the perps' target was....
 
NIGHTLORD40K said:
Unfortunately, I have some experience with this situation. After subdoing an attacker and restraining him while the wife called the cops, I got to listen to the 911 operator yelling at ME that I had to let the SOB up and couldnt hold him down. Ya, right.
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Ever hear of a charge of "unlawful restraint"? The 911 operator was giving you good advice.

NIGHTLORD40K said:
Fortunately, the responding officers were sympathetic.
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And what would happen if the responding officers weren't sympathetic? Possible criminal charges and a nice fat civil lawsuit that will put lots of your cash in perp's prison commissary account.

How much training and experience do have handcuffing someone? I'm guess not much or you'd know how dangerous it is. I can't remember the number of times that an uneventful arrest turned into a fight when the steel hit the wrist.
 
Jeff White said:
I can't remember the number of times that an uneventful arrest turned into a fight when the steel hit the wrist.
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It's the last chance! Gotta get the party started while the getting's good!

Seriously, I pay for the Police to worry about restraining and rendering aid; once someone's broken into my house I can't see why I should relate to them in any way except yelling and shooting.
 
GunnyUSMC said:
The home owner fired over 20 rounds. One of the biggest deciding factors in a gun fight is, the first one to run out of ammo will most likely be the looser.
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Gosh, does that mean that the homeowner actually performed a reload? And here most of the noise around defensive uses of handguns is that the armed victim never has to reload ...

Jeff White said:
Ever hear of a charge of "unlawful restraint"? The 911 operator was giving you good advice.
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And that may be the case in some situations. Ah, well, and that may well depend on the region and jurisdiction. Citizens in Washington state, for example, are covered by a pretty solid "inference of intent" law if a subject enters a residence unlawfully and remains there -- especially if he/they are armed with a deadly weapon --, and I believe we've had a couple cases up here in the past decade where the residents managed to restrain intruders and were not charged nor sued ... Of course, most of the twenty or so home invasions I'm familiar with in my county, and our adjacent counties over the past five years or so, have ended up with dead intruders.

Nonetheless, my chief concern about applying some type of restraints to a wounded or even uninjured intruder is that it's difficult to restrain even a compliant subject when the adrenaline is pumping -- sometimes even for those who should be experienced in applying restraints (ever watched "Cops" or "Live PD?") ... if you're alone, don't even think about it ... if it's a combative subject, don't even think about it. I've got more than a minute of experience behind me rolling around on pavement trying to cuff someone who doesn't want to be cuffed, so I'd just rather not. And not because I'm worried about my local prosecutor charging me with "unlawful restraint" of someone who entered my abode, armed, and with bad intent.
 
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Jeff White said:
Ever hear of a charge of "unlawful restraint"? The 911 operator was giving you good advice.


And what would happen if the responding officers weren't sympathetic? Possible criminal charges and a nice fat civil lawsuit that will put lots of your cash in perp's prison commissary account.

How much training and experience do have handcuffing someone? I'm guess not much or you'd know how dangerous it is. I can't remember the number of times that an uneventful arrest turned into a fight when the steel hit the wrist.
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We were already in a fight. In my driveway. On my land. Stranger, bigger than me, drunk, never met him before.

Well, lets see. I was just assaulted, Ive got the guy on the ground, the scumbag is still trying to fight, so my options are:

1)Let him up so he can come at me again. Maybe he gets the best of me and I wind up hurt or dead. Maybe by that point my wife has grabbed my gun and shoots him dead.

2) Keep beating him until hes unconscious, and maybe dies.

3)Keep him down until the law arrives. Handcuffs would have been nice, though, admittedly, they may have proved impractical to put on at that moment.

So, ya, I feel pretty good about my actions. Your results may vary.
 
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There's a script 911 operators have to follow (it's a liability thing) ... they can't tell you, "Shoot to slide-lock" even if that's what they really want to say based on the screams they're hearing in the background ... what is most important is your perception of the level of force you needed to use. Sounds as though you took the appropriate course of action (and were admirably restrained throughout).

I can't speak for cops everywhere, but it seems preferable to arrive on scene and find the perpetrator somewhat subdued vice having to traipse through the neighborhood backyards and alleys looking for him (especially in the middle of the night, and especially if everyone in the neighborhood has a pit pull in their backyard).
 
NIGHTLORD40K said:
We were already in a fight. . . I was just assaulted, I've got the guy on the ground, the scumbag is still trying to fight. . .
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Ah, so your case is a bit different in that you were not moving closer, or down the force continuum, having started from a gunfight. If you're already sitting on him, continuing to sit seems quite reasonable. Much more reasonable than crossing the room to sit on someone you've just shot.

This thread is about gunfights, so your case is a bit outside the expected scope.
 
Jeff White said:
Ever hear of a charge of "unlawful restraint"? The 911 operator was giving you good advice.
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I'm in your camp when it comes to detaining someone being a bad idea on pragmatic/tactical grounds alone, but hadn't heard of this being a concern before. Do you have an example of a homeowner being charged with unlawful restraint for detaining someone who broke in?
 
It seems most of these types of incidents are over with fairly quickly and with few shots fired- except when that doesn't happen.
 
My home defense consists of bars on all the windows and metal burglar doors on all the doors, an alarm system and 7 dogs (3 Chihuahuas, 2 Pitbulls, a Terrier and a Retriever) that sleep in the bedroom that I lock at night. Boss Chihuahua always sounds the alarm and has even chased a bear off my property, he is also a biter and will bite friends, Male Pitbull takes his cue from The Boss.
I don't have kids at home so my guns are next to my bed, some are in cases but my 8 go to guns are 5 handguns (357,9,22)and 3 carbines (357,22,7.65x54R), all of them loaded and on a shelf by the bed or next to. Even if they got in the house I would be fully awake and ready hopefully having dialed 911 (being law abiding) and just staying put behind cover. I really have nothing worth stealing or defending other than lives.
If I hear a bump in the night and the dogs aren't agitated then I go see, usually with the 9 but not exclusively. I really like the 10/22, short, light and 25 rounds.
 
I have a hand held scanner set to the local police frequencies. A hold over from when I worked at the sheriff's office. Just a week ago they had a home invasion call a little over a mile away from my home. The dispatcher relayed the details of the 911 call that there were 3 or 4 intruders trying to gain entry to a home. I had my AR ready for a few hours after that situation was resolved. Having no way to safely keep an AR ready but safe from the kid, it went up in the safe again at the end of the night. And added a spare magazine to my home defense firearm bed safe.
 
I live rural in an area that is highly unlikely for a home invasion.

Still, I have a G17 under my pillow, my EDC G26 +2 on the dresser and a 12g 18" pump loaded with 1oz slugs nearby.

We also have motion lights and a very alertive pit bull that has free roam of the house day and night.


I sleep pretty good...
 
This is another lame use of gun fight statistics. We have no information about how those 20 or 40 rounds were used, so should we just assume that because that many rounds were fired in a gunfight, that it was necessary, it will happen again, and the fight we will be in will require 20 or 40 rounds? Look, I am not saying it will require less, and I'm not saying it will require more. Instead of drawing a conclusion about round-counts needed for a modern-day gunfight, I could more easily draw a conclusion about the marksmanship needed. Instead, I'm saying the information we have about this gunfight is useless for informing equipment choices, techniques or tactics. Without complete details, it's just another lame anecdote.
 
Good Ol' Boy said:
I live rural in an area that is highly unlikely for a home invasion.
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Plenty of the home invasions up here in the PNW have happened in some of the more rural areas. Meth cooks and meth dealers don't typically hang out in the suburbs up here.
labnoti said:
This is another lame use of gun fight statistics. We have no information about how those 20 or 40 rounds were used, so should we just assume that because that many rounds were fired in a gunfight, that it was necessary, it will happen again, and the fight we will be in will require 20 or 40 rounds? Look, I am not saying it will require less, and I'm not saying it will require more.
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It's not a "lame use" of statistics; simply points out that you can't predict what you might need should the situation go to guns. Again, would you rather have too many rounds on hand, or not enough? At one's home, there's simply no excuse for not being prepared for worst case. If you're defending your home and all you've got is five rounds loaded in a J-frame, shame on you, I don't care where you live.
 
I think I’m ready. I have 6 rounds loaded in a K Frame.:p

I am always curious what is so important about continuing on with your crimes when you start getting shot at during what appears to be a simple home invasion. Do the perps think there are gold bars in the safe in this house or are figuring if the resident is using deadly force to defend his property then there must be something good or are they just in survival mode?

You hear stories about meth heads doing what ever it takes to get their fix and about how they can be quite spectacular bullet sponges.
 
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Excerpts, take aways, comment// caveat IMHO IANAL etc. ...

FROM OP ''...next to the nightstand.''
Ahhh yes. Under the cover of night. A ++ vote for having a flashlight close by, perhaps?

''My ears do better indoors with a 9mm than they do...''
I simply took the 1st mention of hearing to also include by the flashlight mentioned previous, hearing protection i.e. muffs

''I haven't seen many 9mm carbines run...''
Another ++ vote for flashlight:)

''I'm in your camp when it comes to detaining someone being a bad idea....
....being charged with unlawful restraint for detaining someone who broke in?''
Yes best to act 100% no, 200% under all local fed state laws furth... if someone under these stressful circumstance acts .0004% outside of character well guess what...under NORMAL circumstance they wouldn't have shot someone also. A jury (IF it goes that far which I doubt) would be compelled to judge if the VICTIM acted in a manner ''like a regular person would''...including minor mistakes. Police arriving and VICTIM is in bathrobe? OMG! VICTIM was sitting on the perp? As a REASONABLE jury member I would laugh at that argument.
 
labnoti said:
This is another lame use of gun fight statistics. We have no information about how those 20 or 40 rounds were used, so should we just assume that because that many rounds were fired in a gunfight, that it was necessary, it will happen again, and the fight we will be in will require 20 or 40 rounds? Look, I am not saying it will require less, and I'm not saying it will require more. Instead of drawing a conclusion about round-counts needed for a modern-day gunfight, I could more easily draw a conclusion about the marksmanship needed. Instead, I'm saying the information we have about this gunfight is useless for informing equipment choices, techniques or tactics. Without complete details, it's just another lame anecdote.
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Here's another one just for you.
About three years ago a Livingston Parish Deputy was in a shoot out while off duty. The Deputy had started dating a woman that had gone through a bad divorce. They had been dating for a few months. After his 12 hour shift the Deputy stopped by his girlfriend's house. He placed his gun belt on the counter in the kitchen and sat in the living room to watch TV with his girlfriend.
Unknown to then the Ex-husband was on his way to kill his Ex-wife. The Ex-husband was a known hot head and had had a few run ins with the law in the pass.
Not long after sitting down to watch TV the Ex-husband was kicking the front door and screaming that he was coming in and was going to kill everyone. The Deputy sent his girlfriend down the hall to lock herself in her room and then went to the kitchen to get his gun. As he made it to the kitchen the Ex-husband kicked in the front door and entered the living room shooting. The Deputy returned fire and the gun fight continued for several minuets. When the smoke cleared and responding Deputies arrived (responding to the 911 call placed by the girlfriend) The Ex- husband was dead in the living room.
Somewhere around 80 rounds had been fired, 30 something from the Deputy, the rest from the Ex-husband. The State Police Crime Scene Unit processed the scene. I am friends with two of the Crime Scene personal. They said the living room and kitchen had been destroyed by gun fire. The Ex-husband had been hit three or four times. The deputy had minor injuries.

Now some will say that with that many rounds being fired that there was a lack of marksmanship. For those that say that, they have never been in a gun fight.
 
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