More than a million new high-capacity ammunition magazines flooded into California during lifted ban

<*(((>< said:

Does anyone know if a retailer who took stock of magazines during the window if they can sell the inventory after the stay?

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Not a lawyer, much less one in California, but from what I've seen this would be a violation both by the retailer and the purchaser. They'll have to wait for the case to work further through the system (assuming we get a favorable ruling further along).

Speedo66 said:

BSA1 said: ↑
Are backorders legal to ship?
BDS said: No. By judge Benitez, all orders had to be purchased by 5:00 PM 4/5/19.

My thinking is the purchase took place when you placed your order and paid for it. If money was accepted for the backorder, sounds like a purchase to me.

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Yes, I believe an internet/online "purchase" is made when your card is charged and money "technically" changes hands.

If charge was made on "back order", I could see this as a "purchase" but if charge was not made until magazine came into stock after 5:00 PM 4/5/19, then no.

<*(((>< said:

Does anyone know if a retailer who took stock of magazines during the window if they can sell the inventory after the stay?

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Vendors one by one posted they would not accept orders and ship to CA after 5:00 PM 4/5/19.

I think that number might actually be higher.

and does not address the mess of them that where already here.

Tons of people paid cash, removed blocks and pins, or did some diving at the scene of the boating accident.

Corpral_Agarn said:

did some diving at the scene of the boating accident.

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bds said:

Vendors one by one posted they would not accept orders and ship to CA after 5:00 PM 4/5/19.

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I was asking about if a California vendor purchased wholesale magazines to sell to the California public, that if they took possession of the magazines during the stay if they would be allowed to sell the 'window purchased' magazines after the stay, seeings how it was legal to purchase and therefore should be grandfathered in. I probably wasn't clear.

Gridley said:

Not a lawyer, much less one in California, but from what I've seen this would be a violation both by the retailer and the purchaser. They'll have to wait for the case to work further through the system (assuming we get a favorable ruling further along).

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@Gridley said this would've been a violation of some sort, would like to see the verbiage that would've restricted a California vendor but not the public from purchasing the magazines during the 'window'.

“I think about the numerous shootings that are often stopped when someone jumps in when the shooter is reloading,” said Josh Horwitz, executive director of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence. “For people shot by the second magazine, it really matters.”

Yeah tell that to anyone who competes ISPC, or has moderate practice. I’m disappointed it is over. But the volume shows that the state is not doing justice by its people. We make the laws, not our very few politicians. I think we forget that sometimes.

<*(((>< said:

I was asking about if a California vendor purchased wholesale magazines to sell to the California public, that if they took possession of the magazines during the stay if they would be allowed to sell the 'window purchased' magazines after the stay

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No, as explained by California Rifle Pistol Association that sued CA - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/happy-days-in-ca.849757/page-4#post-11102503

"I. CAN I STILL PURCHASE MAGAZINES CAPABLE OF HOLDING MORE THAN 10 ROUNDS IN CALIFORNIA?

NO! As of 5:00 P.M. Friday, April 5, the decision granting the Duncan Plaintiff’s motion for summary judgment has been stayed pending appeal by the California Attorney General. As a result, California’s restrictions prohibiting the manufacture, importation, sale, transfer or receipt of any “large-capacity” magazines are once again in effect."

bds said:

No. By judge Benitez, all orders had to be purchased by 5:00 PM 4/5/19.

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It hinges on the meaning of the word "purchased." Presumably that means when title passes. So a magazine in transit would probably be OK, but a backorder would not. When the order was actually shipped would be critical, since most sales are FOB the seller's place of business.

Corpral_Agarn said:

I think that number might actually be higher.

and does not address the mess of them that where already here.

Tons of people paid cash, removed blocks and pins, or did some diving at the scene of the boating accident.

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True, plenty people had magazines from neighboring sensible states. Can they now claim they got these during the window?

@bds, I feel obtuse, the answer was staring me right in the face on that one. I was totally looking past the fact that there is no further 'sale or transfer' after the stay, which would obviously answer my question. Thank you for bearing with me.

AlexanderA said:

It hinges on the meaning of the word "purchased." Presumably that means when title passes. So a magazine in transit would probably be OK, but a backorder would not. When the order was actually shipped would be critical, since most sales are FOB the seller's place of business.

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Yes, as explained by California Rifle Pistol Association that sued CA - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/happy-days-in-ca.849757/page-4#post-11102503

"V. I LAWFULLY PURCHASED MAGAZINES DURING 'FREEDOM WEEK' BUT THEY HAVE YET TO ARRIVE IN THE MAIL, AM I STILL OK TO RECEIVE THEM?

YES! As noted in the Court’s order granting a stay, anyone who 'manufactured, imported, sold, or bought' magazines capable of holding more than 10 rounds during 'Freedom Week' cannot be prosecuted for violating California’s 'large-capacity' magazine restrictions. Assuming the individual 'bought' the magazines but has yet to receive them, the Court’s order prohibits that individual from being prosecuted."

ATLDave said:

Yes, but the difference is the NFA has been federal law for virtually all living memory now, and was enacted just prior to most or all of the covered items truly making it into widespread civilian use. Not so with magazine bans.

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I would say that suppressors are "in widespread use" despite the NFA. And MG's would be too, were it not for the 1986 Hughes Amendment. I would say that the Friedman v. City of Highland Park rationale could be used to attack the Hughes Amendment, if not the NFA itself. Remember, regulation (the original NFA structure) is not the same as an outright ban.

Jessesky said:

Can they now claim they got these during the window?

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That's why Rick Travis from CRPA said it would be difficult for the State of CA to prove when the magazine was purchased (and nearly impossible to enforce). From podcast - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/happy-days-in-ca.849757/page-3#post-11098789

bds said:

"Purchase" AND "Possession" of large capacity magazines (LCM) by start of stay (4/5/19 at 5:00 PM PST) is legal. Magazines ordered online but in transit after the start of stay may not be legal, especially dependent on local laws. But it will be difficult for the State of CA to prove when the magazine was purchased

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There was talk of stamping magazines with date of manufacture to prevent purchase past the legal deadline in past years. Thing is that magazine parts wear such as follower, spring, base and even tube/lips can be damaged (some people drove over their magazines by accident and flattened them). So CA magazine owners raised the issue that parts of the magazine had to be replaced over use/time and that's where magazine kits came into being and was legal to purchase (And judge Benitez made these magazine kits legal between 3/29/19 and 5:00 PM 4/5/19).

So even if magazine parts were stamped with date of manufacture, all the tens of millions of large capacity magazines Californians previously owned and bought between 3/29/19 and 4/5/19 over time would wear and need to be replaced by date stamped magazine parts. Which makes date stamping of magazine parts moot.

In reality, it is impractical (If not impossible) to enforce magazine ban. Essentially, you would have to ban all magazines.

AlexanderA said:

I would say that suppressors are "in widespread use" despite the NFA.

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And in "common use" in many European countries to protect hearing of gun owners.

Speedo66 said:

My thinking is the purchase took place when you placed your order and paid for it. If money was accepted for the backorder, sounds like a purchase to me.

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This sounds like a classic bar exam question. An offer and acceptance means that a contract for the purchase is complete. But the purchase itself (the passing of title) is not complete until the item is delivered under the terms of the contract. "Delivery" generally includes delivery to a common carrier such as the post office.

AlexanderA said:

I would say that suppressors are "in widespread use" despite the NFA. And MG's would be too, were it not for the 1986 Hughes Amendment.

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Maybe. Maybe. But it's a long way from the level of widespread, common use of magazines with more than 10 rounds. What percentage of gun owners own even a single suppressor? If it's 1% I'll eat my hat.

Just to be clear, I think suppressors should be readily available. I'm just saying that we're not doing ourselves any favors conflating this with magazines. Let's get a clear win on the magazine issue first.

ATLDave said:

Maybe. Maybe. But it's a long way from the level of widespread, common use of magazines with more than 10 rounds. What percentage of gun owners own even a single suppressor? If it's 1% I'll eat my hat.

Just to be clear, I think suppressors should be readily available. I'm just saying that we're not doing ourselves any favors conflating this with magazines. Let's get a clear win on the magazine issue first.

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Getting a little off topic, but I wonder; what is the threshold for 'common use'?

I'd be a lot more interested in buying one suppressor if I thought it might contribute to making it easier to buy additional ones in the future.

Gridley said:

Getting a little off topic, but I wonder; what is the threshold for 'common use'?

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Nobody knows. Seriously, that's part of the developing caselaw.

Gridley said:

what is the threshold for 'common use'?

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What is Common Use? https://thelawdictionary.org/common-use/

"This phrase refers to the articles that are used by the general public and are sold widely in many markets."

And large capacity magazines are commonly used by gun owners of majority of states. I believe we more than meet the threshold for "common use".

To not hijack the thread, I think the discussion of noise reduction should be done on a separate category "NFA firearms and accessories" - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?forums/nfa-firearms-and-accessories.58/

Agreed. The suppressors might be a close or difficult call on "common use." The magazines are not a close call. Anyone who says they are not in "common use" is either profoundly ignorant or simply doesn't care about the truth of the matter.

Jessesky said:

True, plenty people had magazines from neighboring sensible states. Can they now claim they got these during the window?

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Claim???

Bro... that's just what happened...
for... a lot of people. gnomesayin?

Proof that they DIDN'T get them in that window would be impossible.

What a some people in CA are not getting is that this sequence of events basically nullifies the law.
The judge restarted the clock.

Law enforcement would not be able to prove that you got the mags outside the window of blissful freedom.

Corpral_Agarn said:

Claim??? ... Proof that they DIDN'T get them in that window would be impossible.

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This is The High Road ... We are law abiding gun owners (Yes, even those of us in California) and endorse doing everything legally.

Of course, if you break the law and get caught, deserve your predicament.

Judge Benitez gave us CA gun owners A WEEK, plenty of time to legally buy large capacity magazines (LCM) or take a road trip to neighboring states (And most major cities offer direct flights to Las Vegas). If you couldn't borrow money, use credit card or get a loan (or second mortgage) to buy legal LCMs, you only have yourself to blame.

Both Brownells and PSA offered 100 pack PMAGS for a great price ... enough for lifetime supply - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/happy-days-in-ca.849757/page-2#post-11098197

bds said:

This is The High Road ... We are law abiding gun owners (Yes, even those of us in California) and endorse doing everything legally.

Of course, if you break the law and get caught, deserve your predicament.

Judge Benitez gave us CA gun owners A WEEK, plenty of time to legally buy large capacity magazines (LCM). If you couldn't borrow money, use credit card or get a loan (or second mortgage) to buy legal LCMs, you only have yourself to blame.

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I would never encourage illegal activities.

Especially on a public forum. I am just pointing out the realities of the situation.

I think millions of mags were converted from pitiful 10 rounders to ultra mega awesome freedom 30 rounders during that week.

What irritated me about this whole debacle was how retail orders for customers in other states largely got put on the back burner. Gunmagwarehouse
expected me to gladly wait a few weeks to get my mags shipped to my state. Sorry, Cali laws aren't my prob, order canceled.

Ben86 said:

What irritated me about this whole debacle was how retail orders for customers in other states largely got put on the back burner. Gunmagwarehouse
expected me to gladly wait a few weeks to get my mags shipped to my state. Sorry, Cali laws aren't my prob, order canceled.

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Sorry to hear that but I don't think you know what was a stake.

The law speaks to "common use". By flooding the state with mags, they are going to be "common use" from here on out.

There were private individuals of other states literally boxing up their own personal mags and shipping them out. In some cases, free of charge.
This legal move will affect the entire nation.

GunMagWarehouse really came through for me and lots of other CA residents.

I guess I don't feel too bad about your few weeks, all things considered. Heck we have been waiting for many years.