It appears that in some places people are ignoring the bump stock ban.
https://americanmilitarynews.com/20...2FXbcwI3lQhA1lGeP5gBO-YPuQbmqxSl13fF1DKJs55AI
https://americanmilitarynews.com/20...2FXbcwI3lQhA1lGeP5gBO-YPuQbmqxSl13fF1DKJs55AI
Bump Stocks not being turned in.
- Thread starter Jack B.
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AlexanderA
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The purpose of the ban was not to collect them, but to drive them underground. It seems that it is succeeding pretty well in this.
The unintended consequence, though, is this -- if being caught with a bump stock is the same as being caught with an actual machine gun, why not just go with an actual machine gun? The penalty is the same. What this has done is lower the psychological threshold of having an illegal machine gun.
I always thought that the pre-1986 NFA rules provided a "safety valve" for those that really wanted machine guns and other regulated items. Jump through the hoops and you could have one legally. The closing of the registry in 1986 led to workarounds such as bump stocks. Now, with the banning of these workarounds, there is no "safety valve" (other than paying many thousands of dollars for a legal machine gun) and people are just going to do whatever they want without regard to the law. Remember, these are otherwise law-abiding people. We're not talking about career criminals.
The unintended consequence, though, is this -- if being caught with a bump stock is the same as being caught with an actual machine gun, why not just go with an actual machine gun? The penalty is the same. What this has done is lower the psychological threshold of having an illegal machine gun.
I always thought that the pre-1986 NFA rules provided a "safety valve" for those that really wanted machine guns and other regulated items. Jump through the hoops and you could have one legally. The closing of the registry in 1986 led to workarounds such as bump stocks. Now, with the banning of these workarounds, there is no "safety valve" (other than paying many thousands of dollars for a legal machine gun) and people are just going to do whatever they want without regard to the law. Remember, these are otherwise law-abiding people. We're not talking about career criminals.
Prohibitionary schemes are hard to make work.
I think bump stocks are both ridiculous and do pose a real difference in the level of indiscriminate violence they enable (in particular, the capacity to create a "beaten zone" at a distance that is incompatible with human life and can be imposed from a position that is difficult for LEO to assault, as show in the Las Vegas shooting). But I agree with Alex's assessment that the no-way-no-how effect of making them unregisterable machine guns is going to have unintended consequences.
I think bump stocks are both ridiculous and do pose a real difference in the level of indiscriminate violence they enable (in particular, the capacity to create a "beaten zone" at a distance that is incompatible with human life and can be imposed from a position that is difficult for LEO to assault, as show in the Las Vegas shooting). But I agree with Alex's assessment that the no-way-no-how effect of making them unregisterable machine guns is going to have unintended consequences.
AlexanderA
Member
The obvious solution is to repeal the Hughes Amendment and allow access to legal, but regulated, machine guns. These have never been a problem. But I suppose that logic has no place when it comes to gun legislation. All the politicians and interest groups -- on all sides of the issue -- just love having this as a political football.
Fine Figure of a Man
Member
It was?
BigSteve57
Member
People are probably cutting them up into small pieces and just putting it all in the trash.It appears that in some places people are ignoring the bump stock ban.
https://americanmilitarynews.com/20...2FXbcwI3lQhA1lGeP5gBO-YPuQbmqxSl13fF1DKJs55AI
AlexanderA
Member
I doubt it. They're probably just hiding them in the attic and hoping they won't be found.
Anybody with half a brain knew that they wouldn't be turned in. But also, that you wouldn't be seeing them at the range any more.
Probably some of both. Why would you go to the trouble of turning it in (and thereby subjecting yourself to an interaction with law enforcement with you cast in the role of suspect) when you could just smash it up and put it in a garbage bag to be hauled to the dump?
Fine Figure of a Man
Member
The purpose was to appease anti gun leftists. The effect is to make law abiding citizens chose between surrendering/destroying their property or becoming a criminal by default.
They outlawed them, and if seen they can go after the user.
They were always a limited benefit product. They allow the firearm to cycle at a high rate, but because the entire firearm is moving around they introduce far less accuracy than an actual fully automatic firearm. The accuracy of a real machinegun is degraded just by the barrel heating up and recoil forces and some flexing of the metal. Vibrations of just the barrel cause slight deviation.
You reduce all those factors within reason of a design to get an even better machinegun. The bump stock goes the other direction.
While appealing to a segment of the population as a range toy or fantasy defensive tool, it should have limited appeal to a criminal black market. It is the crime of having a machinegun but far less effective of a weapon, and at more than a very short distance slower to put lead on target than semi auto fire. While all that firing is going to make unmistakable and unique noise that gets the attention of the whole area and pinpoints their location very quickly.
As the best use of the device is for recreation and now if you are seen using it you can go to prison the enjoyment of recreation has been removed for most people. That makes it a useless object.
They were always a limited benefit product. They allow the firearm to cycle at a high rate, but because the entire firearm is moving around they introduce far less accuracy than an actual fully automatic firearm. The accuracy of a real machinegun is degraded just by the barrel heating up and recoil forces and some flexing of the metal. Vibrations of just the barrel cause slight deviation.
You reduce all those factors within reason of a design to get an even better machinegun. The bump stock goes the other direction.
While appealing to a segment of the population as a range toy or fantasy defensive tool, it should have limited appeal to a criminal black market. It is the crime of having a machinegun but far less effective of a weapon, and at more than a very short distance slower to put lead on target than semi auto fire. While all that firing is going to make unmistakable and unique noise that gets the attention of the whole area and pinpoints their location very quickly.
As the best use of the device is for recreation and now if you are seen using it you can go to prison the enjoyment of recreation has been removed for most people. That makes it a useless object.
jrmiddleton425
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It appears that in some places people are ignoring the bump stock ban.
https://americanmilitarynews.com/20...2FXbcwI3lQhA1lGeP5gBO-YPuQbmqxSl13fF1DKJs55AI
The problem with this article, is that it starts by assuming most or all gun owners have them. I think you will find that not to be the case.
Statistically speaking, you could plot this on a bell curve like so:
If you poll 5000 gun owners, 100 randomly selected from every state, it's a safe assumption that 3000+ of those gun owners will have never SEEN a bump stock, and of the remaining 2000, maybe 1000 have used one, and 500 or fewer actually OWN one.
I'm just saying I'm glad people are standing up against these ridiculous laws and making a positive statement about our 2A rights. I wouldn't own a bump stock. I don't even own a semi auto rifle. IMO bump stocks are junk fit for a junk yard. I'm not defending bump stocks just the people that own them.
Phaedrus/69
Member
Really? It was an unsolicited bit of whimsy from an anti-gun rightist as far as I can tell. Do you really think he's trying appeal to the left?
Zerodefect
member
Bingo.
Our police departments should be terrified of this. Pass laws that make honest people outlaws, and they'll behave like outlaws whenever you're stuck dealing with them.
Something as simple as me accidentally getting caught trespassing, taking a shortcut while walking back to my hotel, turns into a shootout.
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earlthegoat2
Member
I have heard an actual ATF agent comment on this issue. Granted, there is know way this individual FLEO could know for sure but his understanding was that they were not exactly going to be going after anyone (especially normal law abiding citizens) who still possessed a bump stock but rather would be treating it as a charge of opportunity in a greater crime such as drug dealing related crimes, etc.
If that is true, it sure seems to take a lot of the teeth out of it but still the law is the law.
If that is true, it sure seems to take a lot of the teeth out of it but still the law is the law.
Styx
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Yea like they do a raid on the wrong house by accident...
Me personally, I think it's completely asinine to risk your freedom, ability to own and be in procession of firearms and ammo for life, and possibly your home, car, job, thousands of dollars, so on and so forth all over a plastic accessory.
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Styx
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After Parkland, I seem to remember that Trump, the NRA, and a bunch of gun owners on forums and social media all being for the ban. Said that bump stocks were dumb and useless, it shouldn't have had been approved in the first place, and/or that we should give the anties bump stocks as an offering to keep gun owners from appearing irrational.... If you're going to be mad at anyone, be mad at them.
That was the time for gun owners and our representatives to stand up and fight. Now, the battle is lose.
That was the time for gun owners and our representatives to stand up and fight. Now, the battle is lose.
Metal God
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It appears that in some places people are ignoring the bump stock ban.
Yep not surprised . CA banned mags that can hold more then 10 rounds . Not just banned them but required the owner to turn them in , destroy or sell out of state . At this time there is no record of anyone turning in a mag that holds more then ten rounds or anyone that has said they destroyed or sold there mags .
What's the saying some are will to say , "come and take it" ! ???
I am. Not surprised at all, but mad.
Just because a battle is lost doesn't mean that the war is too.
Styx
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The war is lost for bump stocks as far as I'm concerned. SCOTUS does not seem interested in taking the case, the president of the U.S. and the majority of Americans agree with the ban, many gun owners who don't own one and who think it's a stupid invention are okay with the ban, the NRA is okay with the ban, etc... The fat lady has song on this one.
jmorris
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Semantics, one is law abiding or a violator of law. The “grey” areas are where we get them better defined.
If Obama was the best POTUS gun salesman, does that make Trump the best one at creating firearms felony violators?
My biggest problem is the fact that bump fire of a semiauto has now turned it into a machinegun. The obvious reason this is bad is that any semiauto can be bumpfired without a $130 hunk of plastic. So now it’s just a matter of time before all semiautos are retroactive machineguns and an (R) POTUS set the precedent that they have to be surrendered or destroyed in a few months without compensation or you can be charged with a felony.
Styx
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This sums up the arguments on our side very nicely. Threads get closed pretty quickly in the Legal forum on this site; however, on several other forums where members are allowed to have a more in-depth discussions and debates, it was about 40/50 respectively arguing that they didn't care either way if they were banned or they wanted them banned.
It's interesting to see how quiet those who were very vocal and all for the ban around the time of Parkland are suddenly mute and no where to be found now that they are banned and their fellow gun owners who owned them are suffering the price.
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Styx
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I predicted that the popular Russian made Vepr AKs would been banned long before they were, and sure enough Trump had them banned from import. Now after the bump stock ban, and the precedence it set, I predict that arm braces will be next. Mark my works, it's just a matter of time that the braces, that many of the gun owners who wanted bumpstocks banned own and like, will be regulated as a SBR.
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