Ruger now has .350's

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Old Stumpy said:
It seems like the only claim to fame for this cartridge is that it is short in length and straight-walled. Designed, I guess for states where they attempt to define regulations to limit the hunter to revolver cartridge carbines.
It's odd that yet another new .35 to .38 caliber straight-walled cartridge is being marketed when you consider that the .375 Winchester just faded away. But I suppose that it's all about that really short case.
Really though for what it is the ballistics really suck. It has less power than a .375 Winchester or .35 Remington, and barely equals a .30-30.
And, because of that really short case, the maximum chamber pressure is 55,000 PSI.
That explains why it takes either a bolt action or a modern rotating bolt head semi-auto, lever, or pump action to contain it.
That also means that it can't be chambered in any traditional lever action like a Marlin 336.
And, since it's just a .357 magnum with .30-30 velocity and high blood pressure, it's actual utility seems very limited for hunting.
In most states the .35 Remington, .375 Winchester, and .30-30 are perfectly legal for hunting so the .350 Legend seems pointless there.
And, if you want to use a bolt action or semi-auto in most states, you can use a whole slew of cartridges with superior ballistics.
So, interesting? I suppose. But, legendary? Hell, no.
Click to expand...

The other cartridges you mentioned arn’t legal to use in the same places and don’t fit in an AR15, which are the two things this was meant to offer. Dispite Winchester’s marketing, the only fair comparison is against other cartridges legal in straight wall states that are commercialy offered in a bolt action and AR15. In that context it’s only competitor is 450 bushmaster. Yes there are legal leveraction cartridges that are better performers but evidently that’s not what everyone wants.
 
I from Iowa, a state with straight walled restrictions, they just changed that law from muzzle loader or shotgun only two years ago. The 450 bushmaster has exploded in popularity. I was in Scheels last week in Des Moines, Iowa talking to one of guys at the counter, he said they can barely keep 450 guns on the shelf. The market for cartridges like the 350 and 450 is huge.

Me personally, I don't like lever actions and think 45-70 is overkill for deer, plus why punish myself shooing the thing. I went with a AR in 450 bushmaster.
 
I understand the criticism: it is not a general purpose cartridge like the .308 Winchester, but 350 Legend sure has its place under the sun for hunting (or even defensive use, I guess) where the shots are not taken at 875 yards every afternoon. I like very much the package it offers when coupled with the light, handy, synthetic (weather and field abuse resistant) and easily scoped Ruger Ranch rifle, which I happen to find attractive. I have absolutely no need for one, yet I contemplate the idea of trading my model 94 30-30 for one. I will monitor the progress of the cartridge over here, where 30-30 is available everywhere ammunition is sold, an important factor for me.
 
someguy2800 said:
The other cartridges you mentioned arn’t legal to use in the same places and don’t fit in an AR15, which are the two things this was meant to offer. Dispite Winchester’s marketing, the only fair comparison is against other cartridges legal in straight wall states that are commercialy offered in a bolt action and AR15. In that context it’s only competitor is 450 bushmaster. Yes there are legal leveraction cartridges that are better performers but evidently that’s not what everyone wants.
Click to expand...

Apparently you didn't read my post carefully. I mentioned that the issue of straight-walled short case rounds in some states as being the justification for this rather lackluster cartridge.
And, NO, despite your opinion that I am only allowed to compare this round to cartridges used in bolt actions and semi-autos in straight wall states, I am free to comment on its ballistics in any context that I choose.
Also, you admit that although there are better lever action cartridges than the .350 legend, that that isn't what everyone wants.
If that is true, then why would anyone want to use a clearly inferior cartridge if they live where they don't have to use it?
Because it's ***NEW*** ?
If so then that is kind of silly, don't you think?

The only real justification for this as a hunting cartridge outside of straight wall states is that it can be crammed into a Ruger Ranch Rifle or an AR-15.
Even then, when you consider that you can get 7.62X39 loads with a 154 grain bullet @ 2100 FPS, and with lower chamber pressures,
the .350 legend is only marginally better. Certainly not enough for a deer to notice.
I find it funny that Winchester keeps hyping the low recoil as the selling feature, but doesn't mention the mediocre ballistics much.
All that they say is that it is: The worlds's fastest straight wall rifle cartridge." ???
I guess that they forgot about the .375 Winchester. Odd considering that that also was their creation. :p
The 200 grain bullet .375 factory load has a higher velocity than the 150 grain bullet .350 legend factory load.
 
Old Stumpy said:
Really though for what it is the ballistics really suck.
Click to expand...

It's (basically) a blown-out .223 case, so the ballistics are what you'd expect... no?

Old Stumpy said:
It has less power than a .375 Winchester or .35 Remington, and barely equals a .30-30.
Click to expand...

Less power than .35 Remington? If you handload, okay. But using your average factory ammo?

X350DS, 350 Legend, 150 gr Deer Season XP , 2325 fps, at 100 yards 1968 fps (20" barrel)
R35R1, 35 Remington, 150 gr Core-Lokt PSP, 2300 fps, at 100 yards 1874 fps (24" barrel)

X3501, 350 Legend, 180 gr Super-X, 2100 fps, at 100 yards 1762 fps (1240 ft lbs) (20" barrel)
X35R1, 35 Remington, 200 gr Super-X, 2020 fps, at 100 yards 1646 fps (1203 ft lbs) (24" barrel)
 
Old Stumpy said:
Apparently you didn't read my post carefully. I mentioned that the issue of straight-walled short case rounds in some states as being the justification for this rather lackluster cartridge.
And, NO, despite your opinion that I am only allowed to compare this round to cartridges used in bolt actions and semi-autos in straight wall states, I am free to comment on its ballistics in any context that I choose.
Also, you admit that although there are better lever action cartridges than the .350 legend, that that isn't what everyone wants.
If that is true, then why would anyone want to use a clearly inferior cartridge if they live where they don't have to use it?
Because it's ***NEW*** ?
If so then that is kind of silly, don't you think?

The only real justification for this as a hunting cartridge outside of straight wall states is that it can be crammed into a Ruger Ranch Rifle or an AR-15.
Even then, when you consider that you can get 7.62X39 loads with a 154 grain bullet @ 2100 FPS, and with lower chamber pressures,
the .350 legend is only marginally better. Certainly not enough for a deer to notice.
I find it funny that Winchester keeps hyping the low recoil as the selling feature, but doesn't mention the mediocre ballistics much.
All that they say is that it is: The worlds's fastest straight wall rifle cartridge." ???
I guess that they forgot about the .375 Winchester. Odd considering that that also was their creation. :p
The 200 grain bullet .375 factory load has a higher velocity than the 150 grain bullet .350 legend factory load.
Click to expand...

You can of course compare it to whatever you like, it’s a free country. You could also compare a 45acp to a 30-06.
 
Less power than .35 Remington? If you handload, okay. But using your average factory ammo?

X350DS, 350 Legend, 150 gr Deer Season XP , 2325 fps, at 100 yards 1968 fps (20" barrel)
R35R1, 35 Remington, 150 gr Core-Lokt PSP, 2300 fps, at 100 yards 1874 fps (24" barrel)

X3501, 350 Legend, 180 gr Super-X, 2100 fps, at 100 yards 1762 fps (1240 ft lbs) (20" barrel)
X35R1, 35 Remington, 200 gr Super-X, 2020 fps, at 100 yards 1646 fps (1203 ft lbs) (24" barrel)[/QUOTE]

If you are going to compare your spitzer pointed .35 Legend cartridges to .35 Remington, it seems only fair to quote the Hornaday Lever Revolution ammunition ballistics using their 200 grain FTX spitzer bullet with a soft rubber tip. That way the ballistic coefficients are more equal, and an old under-loaded factory loading has not been selected for comparison.

.35 Remington, 200 grain Hornaday FTX, 2225 FPS, at 100 yards 1963 FPS (1711 ft lbs @ 100 yards) (24" barrel)

That's a heavier bullet at a high velocity than .35 Legend, and easilly accomplished at SAAMI pressures within 37,500 PSI, while the .35 Legend generates whopping SAAMI pressures within 55,000 PSI.
 
Old Stumpy said:
If you are going to compare your spitzer pointed .35 Legend cartridges to .35 Remington, it seems only fair to quote the Hornaday Lever Revolution ammunition ballistics using their 200 grain FTX spitzer bullet with a soft rubber tip. That way the ballistic coefficients are more equal, and an old under-loaded factory loading has not been selected for comparison.

.35 Remington, 200 grain Hornaday FTX, 2225 FPS, at 100 yards 1963 FPS (1711 ft lbs @ 100 yards) (24" barrel)

That's a heavier bullet at a high velocity than .35 Legend, and easilly accomplished at SAAMI pressures within 37,500 PSI, while the .35 Legend generates whopping SAAMI pressures within 55,000 PSI.
Click to expand...

That's a fair bit more powerful, to be sure, but it's moot for those hunting in the straight-wall states the 350 Legend was designed for... or those who might use it in an AR-15.

I checked the Remington 30-30 150 gr Core-Lokt as well. From a 24" barrel that's 1973 fps at 100 yds (Legend 150 gr= 1968 fps/100 yd/20" bbl). Pretty close, I think. In any case the Legend is in the same power class as traditional .35 Rem loads. Or even up close, a .30-30 (180@2100 vs 170@2100). I'm sure they will all kill a deer in a similar manner. So here we have a legal cartridge that should be able to shoot and kill similar to an old bottlenecked 35 Remington.

Checked the recoil for a .450 Ruger American vs a .350 Ruger American: 25 ft lbs vs 9 ft lbs. So it kicks a lot less than its main competitor, too.

55,000 psi is "whopping" compared to SAAMI 33,500 psi for the 35 Rem, but a .223, .300 Blackout or 6.8 SPC are all also the same "whopping" 55,000 psi. All of the most popular big game hunting rounds are much higher than those. So I'm not sure what you find negative about the operating pressure.

The only big negative I see is this, straight from Winchester:

"350 Legend has no parent case."
 
Old Stumpy said:
I miss your point. Can you elaborate?
Click to expand...

There are like 5 or 6 states that require straight wall cartridges for deer hunting, comprising probably about 2 million hunters, which I know you mentioned. A 35 remington, a 30-30, or a 7.62x39 that you compared to this is not legal for them to use. Some of those states also have maximum case lengths that would also make a 375 winchester illegal. So to say that those cartridges are superior to this is irrelevant to the 2 odd million people that this was meant to be sold too, because they can't use them anyway. Likewise some people want to be able use an AR15. If that doesn't align with your tastes that fine, but that's what some people want and this gives them another option.

My point was that comparing this to cartridges that are not even legal to use for the target market is not a relevant comparison. Its like saying a 30-06 is superior to a 45 acp. You would be right on all accounts for saying so, but there aren't any 30-06 handguns I can carry on my belt so its a moot point.
 
someguy2800 said:
There are like 5 or 6 states that require straight wall cartridges for deer hunting, comprising probably about 2 million hunters, which I know you mentioned. A 35 remington, a 30-30, or a 7.62x39 that you compared to this is not legal for them to use. Some of those states also have maximum case lengths that would also make a 375 winchester illegal. So to say that those cartridges are superior to this is irrelevant to the 2 odd million people that this was meant to be sold too, because they can't use them anyway. Likewise some people want to be able use an AR15. If that doesn't align with your tastes that fine, but that's what some people want and this gives them another option.

My point was that comparing this to cartridges that are not even legal to use for the target market is not a relevant comparison. Its like saying a 30-06 is superior to a 45 acp. You would be right on all accounts for saying so, but there aren't any 30-06 handguns I can carry on my belt so its a moot point.
Click to expand...
You could have added, the 55,000psi was chosen because it's the designed reliable operating limit for the AR15.
I think a lot of people are put off by the marketing hype more than by the cartridge itself.
 
Goosey said:
That's a fair bit more powerful, to be sure, but it's moot for those hunting in the straight-wall states the 350 Legend was designed for... or those who might use it in an AR-15.
Click to expand...

Which is, as I said, about the extent of its usefulness. There is no logical reason for anyone else to bother with it.
 
someguy2800 said:
There are like 5 or 6 states that require straight wall cartridges for deer hunting, comprising probably about 2 million hunters, which I know you mentioned. A 35 remington, a 30-30, or a 7.62x39 that you compared to this is not legal for them to use. Some of those states also have maximum case lengths that would also make a 375 winchester illegal. So to say that those cartridges are superior to this is irrelevant to the 2 odd million people that this was meant to be sold too, because they can't use them anyway. Likewise some people want to be able use an AR15. If that doesn't align with your tastes that fine, but that's what some people want and this gives them another option.
Click to expand...

I dealt with all of this in my posts, and I did NOT say that the cartridge was irrelevant to those in straight wall states.
What I DID say was that this cartridge was only relevant and practically useful to straight wall states, and to users of AR15s and Ruger Ranch Rifles there and anywhere else.
Everyone else can use far better cartridges in their bolt actions, pump actions, sporting semi-automatic rifles, or modern rotating bolt head lever actions outside of the straight wall states, so it is pointless for them to bother with the modest ballistics of the .35 Legend.
Also, the .35 Legend offers nothing over a .375 Winchester or .35 Remington, so hunters can use classic tube fed lever actions outside of the straight wall states without bothering with it.
So it really offers NO viable options to the majority of hunters.
It is a specialty niche cartridge for a specialized niche market.
And frankly, even for those AR15 / Ranch Rifle users in states where there are no straight wall restrictions, the 7.62X39 can serve almost equally as well as the .35 Legend.
(154 gain JSP @ 2104 FPS = 1516 foot pounds)
 
The .375 and .35Rem are great cartridges but the .350 is not intended to replace them. Or even compete with them. Same for the 7.62x39. I didn't know those were my only choices.

I don't live in a straightwall state and I'm not all hot & bothered over it but the .350 interests me for the following reasons:

1. It gives us another option for deer sized game that is 'less' than the .450BM.

2. It fits the AR and AR mags.

3. It is offered in the Ruger American Ranch, also compatible with AR mags.

4. It is a bigger cartridge than the .30's. As a handgun hunter, I have a weakness for bigger bullets out of straightwall cases. Don't care one bit about the 7.62x39.

5. It would be excellent for suppressor use. The plethora of existing .357 bullets will work fine at subsonic velocities, or full steam. No twist rate issues.

6. It would be excellent for the many available cast bullet options.

I don't see any previously existing cartridge checking all those boxes. Maybe a few but I don't see a problem having a .350 in my safe right alongside the .375 and .38-55.
 
I live in a straight wall state, Iowa, and it is sort of big news to those of us who live in them. I’d love to hunt with a 30/30 or 30-06 or whatever, but can’t. I like levers, so used a 357 mag until I just bought a 44 mag Henry for this year. If I was an AR guy or wanted to use a bolt action I’d be buying one. Makes more sense to me personally than the 450 for deer.
 
Old Stumpy said:
I dealt with all of this in my posts, and I did NOT say that the cartridge was irrelevant to those in straight wall states.
What I DID say was that this cartridge was only relevant and practically useful to straight wall states, and to users of AR15s and Ruger Ranch Rifles there and anywhere else.
Everyone else can use far better cartridges in their bolt actions, pump actions, sporting semi-automatic rifles, or modern rotating bolt head lever actions outside of the straight wall states, so it is pointless for them to bother with the modest ballistics of the .35 Legend.
Also, the .35 Legend offers nothing over a .375 Winchester or .35 Remington, so hunters can use classic tube fed lever actions outside of the straight wall states without bothering with it.
So it really offers NO viable options to the majority of hunters.
It is a specialty niche cartridge for a specialized niche market.
And frankly, even for those AR15 / Ranch Rifle users in states where there are no straight wall restrictions, the 7.62X39 can serve almost equally as well as the .35 Legend.
(154 gain JSP @ 2104 FPS = 1516 foot pounds)
Click to expand...

The only thing I would add is I do hunt with a 357 maximum pistol and it is more than adequate for hunting deer sized game at 150 yards, so if this turns someone on, either because of their local laws, or because they just like it, then it is certainly a viable option. I have taken deer with both a 7.62x39 and a 357 maximum and I would without a doubt take the 357 maximum over the 7.62x39 within its range limitations. But anyway we can agree to disagree, I think we both sufficiently understand each other point of view.
 
I used to have a 35Rem and shot it plenty. It's plenty of whomp for whitetail. If I could have used it, I would have its just about ideal for how I hunt without mangling my shoulders.

I don't see how throwing the same bullets, at the same velocity but out of more modern and capable platforms is a bad thing. Plus it's legal for my purposes in my neck of the woods. I'm pretty happy about it myself.
 
CraigC said:
2. It fits the AR and AR mags.
Click to expand...

Am not so sure it uses standard AR mags, from what little info there is, they are not interchangeable.

It might be just a different follower.

Taken from the Winchester site.

Is the 350 Legend compatible with standard 223 Rem/5.56mm magazines?
No, the 350 Legend requires a slightly different magazine, due to the cartridge dimensions that maximize performance.
 
sevt_chevelle said:
Am not so sure it uses standard AR mags, from what little info there is, they are not interchangeable.

It might be just a different follower.

Taken from the Winchester site.

Is the 350 Legend compatible with standard 223 Rem/5.56mm magazines?
No, the 350 Legend requires a slightly different magazine, due to the cartridge dimensions that maximize performance.
Click to expand...

The guys building 357 ar max figured out you can use standard P mags by filing out the bullet guide rib toward the front of the magazines. I don't know if the same would work for the 350 legend since the base is slightly bigger.
 
someguy2800 said:
The guys building 357 ar max figured out you can use standard P mags by filing out the bullet guide rib toward the front of the magazines. I don't know if the same would work for the 350 legend since the base is slightly bigger.
Click to expand...

It's close enough I'll sacrifice one to try if I'm the first guy on the block with one.
 
CraigC said:
he .375 and .35Rem are great cartridges but the .350 is not intended to replace them. Or even compete with them. Same for the 7.62x39. I didn't know those were my only choices.

I don't live in a straightwall state and I'm not all hot & bothered over it but the .350 interests me for the following reasons:

1. It gives us another option for deer sized game that is 'less' than the .450BM.

2. It fits the AR and AR mags.

3. It is offered in the Ruger American Ranch, also compatible with AR mags.

4. It is a bigger cartridge than the .30's. As a handgun hunter, I have a weakness for bigger bullets out of straightwall cases. Don't care one bit about the 7.62x39.

5. It would be excellent for suppressor use. The plethora of existing .357 bullets will work fine at subsonic velocities, or full steam. No twist rate issues.

6. It would be excellent for the many available cast bullet options.
Click to expand...

RE:

1) there are many better options for deer hunting far better than the mediocre .35 Legend.
2) I already said that it was offered in the AR15 and Ranch Rifle, so why repeat old news?
3) It has a slightly larger diameter bullet, but isn't a significantly better deer cartridge than 7.62X39 with the 155 grain JSP load.
Also, many people do favor the 7.62X39 and won't pay the .35 Legend the slightest bit of attention because it offers little.
4) For that small group of suppressor fans, it will work fine. That's fine for a specialized niche cartridge. Nobody else cares.
5) Cast bullet options? The .30-30, .35 Remington, and the .375 Winchester would all work better, because they are not operating at SAAMI
55,000 PSI pressures. So would any of the pistol caliber carbines of .44 caliber and up.

For that matter the .44 Magnum Remington UMC 180 grain JSP ammo has a velocity of 2030 FPS from a 20" barrel and would have less recoil than the 240 grain load. And chamber pressures are well under the 36,000 PSI, allowing it to be used in any traditional lever action carbine.
And, this can be used in the straight wall states, which makes me wonder what actual value the .35 Legend actually has, other than for the aforementioned AR15 and Ranch rifle.
 
Old Stumpy said:
For that matter the .44 Magnum Remington UMC 180 grain JSP ammo has a velocity of 2030 FPS from a 20" barrel and would have less recoil than the 240 grain load. And chamber pressures are well under the 36,000 PSI, allowing it to be used in any traditional lever action carbine.
And, this can be used in the straight wall states, which makes me wonder what actual value the .35 Legend actually has, other than for the aforementioned AR15 and Ranch rifle.
Click to expand...

Same value the .35 Rem has vs 44 Magnum, if I start the 180 gr 44 at 2150, and the 180 gr 350 at 2100, at 200 yards the 350 already has about 2/3 greater energy behind 1/2 greater sectional density. And 44 is a "big bore" 44 and 350 is "only" a 350, but remember these are both 180 gr lead blobs flying through the air.
 
Old Stumpy said:
RE:

1) there are many better options for deer hunting far better than the mediocre .35 Legend.
2) I already said that it was offered in the AR15 and Ranch Rifle, so why repeat old news?
3) It has a slightly larger diameter bullet, but isn't a significantly better deer cartridge than 7.62X39 with the 155 grain JSP load.
Also, many people do favor the 7.62X39 and won't pay the .35 Legend the slightest bit of attention because it offers little.
4) For that small group of suppressor fans, it will work fine. That's fine for a specialized niche cartridge. Nobody else cares.
5) Cast bullet options? The .30-30, .35 Remington, and the .375 Winchester would all work better, because they are not operating at SAAMI
55,000 PSI pressures. So would any of the pistol caliber carbines of .44 caliber and up.

For that matter the .44 Magnum Remington UMC 180 grain JSP ammo has a velocity of 2030 FPS from a 20" barrel and would have less recoil than the 240 grain load. And chamber pressures are well under the 36,000 PSI, allowing it to be used in any traditional lever action carbine.
And, this can be used in the straight wall states, which makes me wonder what actual value the .35 Legend actually has, other than for the aforementioned AR15 and Ranch rifle.
Click to expand...
1. Let's face, if all you want to do is shoot deer, there are dozens upon dozens of options. However, if you want a little more, a little different or something more specific, some options are better (or more desirable) than others.

2. As I said, it was designed for the AR and is now offered in the Ruger American Ranch. The fact that it fits the AR is one of its primary reasons for being. The .375WCF and .35Rem are irrelevant in that context.

3. Why does it have to be "better" than the 7.62x39? Why is it even brought up?

4. Suppressor ownership has been climbing steadily over the last several years with no signs of slacking up.

5. Sure they work fine and have been doing so for decades but as I already said, they don't check all the same boxes. The .350 has a maxium working pressure of 55,000psi. That doesn't mean you have to run it that high all the time. Which should be obvious.

A 180gr .44Mag is a varmint load. Sorry but we're a long way from high school ballistic table discussions. If we're back to comparing it to the .44, we might as well settle with the .450BM. Already addressed that.

I'm not a salesman and am not trying to talk anybody into anything. Just sharing reasons why it has piqued my interest. Don't like it, don't buy one.
 
I had heard the Ruger Americans in 450 Bushmaster were selling like crazy in straight-walled states, so I actually think the 350 Legend has a decent chance to capitalize on that. For people who have to buy a new rifle and have to invest in a new straight-walled caliber, this round is a lower-kick alternative to the 44 Mag or the Bushmaster. It's never going to catch on for any other purpose (the 357 Maximum never made it past a reloader's curiosity), but it doesn't have to.
 
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