Using Red Dot for 9MM

Do you not have access to a reloading manual?? You should get one

You can find Red Dot data in the older manuals at castpics.net. PDF download. Alliant 2006 has it ( if memory serves me right).

Burn rate does not determine charge weight. Different volume, position sensitivity, etc. From one powder to another save a few powders which are identical such as H110 and W296.

Red Dot will fill a 9mm case well. One benefit of the large volume powder. Not quite as full as Unique but it burns cleaner.

As usual start low and work up. But i have found with red dot that if you want a powder puff load you might be better off with something else FME. .2gr swing in load and you go from pops to bangs. Thats why i work up past the the point it goes bang by at least .2 gr for consistency. At least in sound and recoil.

I run 4.1-4 2 gr with my 125gr coated rounds.

1KPerDay said:

Do you not have access to a reloading manual?? You should get one

Click to expand...

OP only has two posts as of my posting so we might want to be a little easier on them even though you are 100% right.

OP never trust the loads posted online. And as stated above you really need to get some reloading manuals. I personally like Lee as a first one. I like Lyman 50th as a second.

I also highly recommend going to each of the company’s sites and getting the free ones they offer that have just their powders. If I’m not mistaken Red Dot is an Alliant powder so go to their site. Their free manual is really nice.

Folks also recommend searching for used ones to save money. I think that’s great but I like new ones for my primary manuals.

As for reducing the load. Do not go below minimum and don’t go above max recommended until you know what you’re doing. Then only do so with care and if you understand the risks and dangers. In other words this isn’t something to try until you have lots of experience and a network of experienced friends to guide you. In other words don’t go there!

Finally welcome to the site. Most folks here are pretty cool but are very much oriented to safe reloading. I am too.

So please feel folks will help you but know they’re not just going to post loads until they know something about your experience and what you’re doing.

And based on your question, I’d error on the side of presuming that you either didn’t ask your question with enough background or that you’re a fairly new or returning reloaded. (And that’s not to be mean just to point out perception as we all started at one time)

I've been using 4.2 grains of Red Dot with 124 grain plated bullets. Works great for me. It should work fine with 115 grain bullets also. Maybe start with 4.0 grains.

This might help.

Viking357 said:

I have some Red Dot powder and would like to use it with Acme 115 grn coated bullets. My question is how many grains should I start with ... i was thinking of reducing the grains by 10%. Is this a good start????

Click to expand...

Welcome to THR.

As other members posted, you should always reference published load data when conducting load development with a new bullet.

But there are reloading variables such as bullet nose profile, bullet base length, bullet diameter, etc. which affect chamber pressures and thus require different amounts of powder charge for particular bullet type/OAL used.



While coated lead bullets can be driven to jacketed velocities without leading, they are often sized larger (.356" like lead bullets) than jacketed bullets (.355") so I reference lead load data (For .356" sized bullets) for start charges with coated bullets.

And if I am using significantly shorter OAL (Deeper bullet seating depth), I will reduce my start/max charges by .2-.3 gr depending on how much shorter the working OAL is.



2004 Alliant load data has lead/jacketed load data for Red Dot and 9mm - http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=182147&d=1364769070

• 115 gr FMJ 1.120" OAL Red Dot Max 4.5 gr (1,150 fps) 32,600 PSI
• 125 gr Lead 1.150" OAL Red Dot Max 4.5 gr (1,145 fps) 32,000 PSI
• 125 gr FMJ 1.150" OAL Red Dot Max 4.6 gr (1,145 fps) 33,000 PSI

While 2004 Alliant load data doesn't list lead load data for 115 gr bullet, it does list lead load data for 125 gr lead bullet and you can reference load data for slightly heavier bullet load data.


And Lyman #49 lists the following for 120 gr Lead RN:

• 120 gr Lead RN 1.065" OAL Red Dot Start 3.0 gr (919 fps) 25,100 CUP - Max 3.9 gr (1140 fps) 32,000 CUP

115 gr coated lead bullets can come with different nose profile that produces different bullet seating depth. You can calculate bullet seating depth and case powder fill as outlined in this post - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/red-dot-9mm-and-case-fill.848934/#post-11078957


Start charge determination - While 10% reduction of 4.5 gr is about 4.0 gr start charge, if you are using a bullet that requires shorter OAL/deeper bullet seating depth than published, I would consider reducing the start charge.

So for .356" sized coated lead bullet that requires shorter working OAL, I would consider starting at 3.8 gr as start charge but keep in mind, Red Dot is large flake powder that meters with .2+ gr variance for me.

With typical 115 gr FMJ/RN bullets, I will usually load to 1.130" OAL and down to 1.110" to improve accuracy. But with MBC Hi-Tek coated 124 gr RN bullet, due to nose profile, I need to seat the bullet deeper to clear the start of rifling in my barrels. The shorter OAL produces deeper seated bullet base which will increase chamber pressure and I usually decrease start/max charge by .2-.3 gr.



FYI, with 115 gr FMJ and plated RN (sized .355") loaded to 1.130" down to 1.110", I will use 4.1 - 4.2 gr Red Dot/Promo which is typical metering variance. This load produces lighter than Winchester white box felt recoil but will cycle all pistols I have and produce good accuracy. Using 4.4 - 4.5 gr will produce more felt recoil and slightly smaller groups - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...blended-promo-for-more-accurate-loads.841097/



Here's W231/HP-38 reference load group for comparison

Viking357 said:

I have some Red Dot powder and would like to use it with Acme 115 grn coated bullets. My question is how many grains should I start with I have used Bullseye in the past. Red dots burn rate is faster so i was thinking of reducing the grains by 10%. Is this a good start????

Click to expand...

Red Dot has a SLOWER burn rate that Bullseye. Not sure where you got the idea that it was faster.

There are SOME charts that show it as faster. Those charts are wrong. I will refer you to the latest Handloader magazine.

Every time I see this thread I think you're talking about red dot sights. I know you're not but I no longer reload. Still, I'm gonna post my red dot on a 9mm:

Viking357 said:

I got the info off of Hodgon site

Click to expand...

Yep!
https://www.hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/burn-rate-color.pdf

Just FYI... and this is just my experience... but 9MM is particularly sensitive to bullet seat length (OAL cartridge length.) I got into problems loading 9mm for my Browning HiPower in my early days of reloading... the 9mm is a fairly high pressure round in what is a fairly small case (vs, say, the .45 ACP.) I would go from rounds that would barely cycle the slide to rounds that would crater the primer and allow the hammer to follow the slide into battery. Do your due diligence... find data specifically for the bullet you are loading and start from there.

Couple of thoughts; don't try to extrapolate data from one cartridge to another or one powder to another, at least for the first 10 years of your reloading. Mistakes can be dangerous. And my rule #1 I suggest to new/newer reloaders; I pay little (no) attention to any load data I see on any forum, from any range rat, gun counter clerk, pet loads website, well intended friend or gun shop guru. I get 98% of my load data from published reloading manuals with a few from powder manufacturer's web sites. I have been reloading for well over 30 years and have always had plenty of loads/data available in my manuals. I had a squib in 1970 and none since, and never a Kaboom nor a near Kaboom using data from my published manuals only...

Sounds like you're off to a good start. Bds' post is gold as always. Confirm all load data with published sources, start low and work up, and have fun!

Powder maker websites tend to be more up to date than printed manuals - I prefer them over the books unless I am using powder (and the books) from a decade or two ago.

Current sources for Red Dot data in pistol cartridges is getting rather scarce. I was unable to find enough current data to comfortably use as cross references. I guess with all the new pistol powders on the market, Red Dot has become unfashionable.
I was given a couple of pounds of Red Dot recently and am trying to determine if it would work better for 38 special or 9mm.

Zendude said:

I was given a couple of pounds of Red Dot recently and am trying to determine if it would work better for 38 special or 9mm.

Click to expand...

For me, Red Dot works very well for 9mm and 45ACP.

And if you like Red Dot, you should definitely try Promo, which is at same burn rate but costs less and meters better. Promo is now my designated general purpose pistol range practice/plinking load powder and great for pistol caliber carbine load powder (For blowback action, faster burn rate does a better job of sealing brass with chamber walls than other slower burning powders before bolt moves back).

After several 8 lb containers of Promo, I like it so much that when my current 8 lb container of Red Dot is gone, I won't be buying any more Red Dot. Here's my thread on "reblended" Promo - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...blended-promo-for-more-accurate-loads.841097/

BTW, Promo is currently the lowest cost pistol powder you can buy (As low as $110/8 lbs) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ponents-on-sale.707473/page-175#post-11117437

George P said:

Viking357 said:

I got the info off of Hodgon site

Click to expand...

Powder maker websites tend to be more up to date than printed manuals

Click to expand...

Viking357, at times you will find reloading information that are inconsistent as there are variables to laboratory testing. For this reason, you will often see advise to check many different manuals and published sources.

Most powder burn rate charts are not "absolute" rather they group or cluster powders by "relative" burn rates (And even Hodgdon's chart is titled "Relative Burn Rates"). If there are several same or similar burn rate powders, the order listed on burn rate charts may not "absolutely" indicate significantly faster/slower burn rate rather they are in the same/similar burn rate range.

On the Hodgdon "relative" burn rate chart, HP-38 is listed as #28 and W231 is listed as #29. Well, they are same "exact" powder but just because Hodgdon used alphabetical order and listed HP-38 first does not mean HP-38 is faster burning than W231. Same goes for #65 Hodgdon 110 and #66 Winchester 296 which are same exact powder.

If you want to learn more about same/comparable powders, check this thread out - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-different-labels.797388/page-6#post-10806193

Over the years for choosing powders based on burn rate, I have used "groupings" of similar burn rate powders instead of "absolute burn rate". So for lighter powder charge target loads, I would suggest powders from "faster" burning group of powders and for full power/higher velocity loads, I would suggest from "slower" burning group of powders - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778197/page-9#post-10644921


Faster burning pistol powders:

E3 - Competition - Nitro 100 - N310 - Norma R1

Red Dot/Promo - IMR Red - Clays - 700X - Bullseye - Vectan Ba 10 - IMR Target - TiteGroup - Vectan AS - Am. Select - Solo 1000 - WST - International - Trail Boss - N320 - Vectan Ba 9.5 - No. 2 - Clean Shot/Lovex D032.03

W231/HP-38 - Zip - Sport Pistol - Green Dot - IMR Green


Slower burning pistol powders:

Unique - Universal - W244 - IMR Unequal - Vectan Ba 9 - BE-86 - Power Pistol - N330 - Vectan A1 - Herco - Vectan A0 - WSF - N340 - 800X

No. 5 - Auto Pistol/Lovex D036-03 - True Blue - HS6 - AutoComp - Ultimate Pistol/Lovex D036-07 - CFE Pistol - Silhouette - 3N37

N350 - 3N38 - IMR Blue - W572 - Blue Dot - No. 7 - Major Pistol/Lovex D037-01 - Vectan Ba 7.5 - Pro Reach - Long Shot - 2400

Enforcer - No. 9 - Heavy Pistol/Lovex D037-02 - 4100 - Steel - Norma R123 - N110 - Lil'Gun - W296/H110 - 300-MP - 11FS - Vectan Ba 6.5 - H4227

Viking357 said:

Thanks for the info This is what i need to look at.!!

Click to expand...

And for higher pressure 9mm, little details and small variables matter.

Note that in Fine Figure of a Man's second attachment, the test cast lead bullet diameter used was sized .358" and test barrel groove diameter was .358" which is not typical for 9mm (And hence why I prefer to use load data that better matches my barrels and bullets). In comparison, Lyman #49 used .356" sized cast lead bullets and .355" groove diameter test barrel.

This is variables in lab test data I was talking about in my previous post as more typical commercial cast lead bullets are sized .356" and factory/aftermarket pistol barrels' groove diameters are .355" - .356"+.

So compare pistol barrel and bullets' dimensions to published load data and if they are different, I tend to use more conservative load data that better match my barrels/bullets as it is better to start low and you can always go higher.

Viking357 said:

I got the info off of Hodgon site

Click to expand...

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/burn_rates.pdf
http://www.larrywillis.com/PowderChart.html
https://loaddata.com/articles/PDF/Powder Burn Rate Chart2.pdf
http://varmintal.com/pburn.htm


Being an older reloader, 40+ years experience, I just figured it was common knowledge that Red Dot is a slower powder than Bullseye. In the latest Handloader they assign a burn rate of 100% to Bullseye and Red Dot comes in at 94%(that's off the top of my head, might be a bit slower).

+1.

I actually like Western Powders burn rate chart as it shows "relative" grouping and comparison to other brand powders instead of being forced an assigned sequential number - http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/burn_rates.pdf

And Western Powders chart shows same burn rate for HP-38/W231 and H110/W296.

But Western Powders chart lists HP-38/W231 faster burning than Red Dot/Promo and most reloaders who have used these powders will agree that Red Dot/Promo are faster than HP-38/W231.

Another point of consideration is that while smokeless powders may burn at certain rate unpressurized, their burn characteristics may vary under different working pressures which can range from 25,000 to 32,000+ PSI for common pistol calibers.

And I found this disclaimer for use with powder burn rate chart - https://www.frfrogspad.com/burnrate.htm

"The actual burning rate and position on this chart can be drastically altered by many factors including case size, bullet weight, expansion ratio, operating pressures, lot to lot variation, manufacture date, etc. Industry tests have shown that a powder's location on this list can shift by 5 - 6 positions or more depending on conditions.

This data was typical under the test conditions it was developed under but may not be true under your circumstances"