Black powder/substitutes- school me?

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I'm starting to reload black powder into cartridges like .44 Colt and .450 Adams. My favorite LGS carried Pyrodex and Triple 7. Of the two the Pyrodex is much less expensive.

Can someone school me on the differences and relative merits/issues with these two powders?
 
This information is for reference use only and I am not telling you to do it. I absolutely take no responsibility for any errors on my part or otherwise so proceed at your own risk.

Pyrodex is very close to black powder but in my opinion more corrosive. Clean immediately after use.

[ (NA you are using cartridge cases sorry) Do not confuse Pyrodex pellets with regular Pyrodex. They are not the same. If the pellets are damaged (broken) while loading you can wind up with dangerous pressure spikes when firing. Pellets unlike regular Pyrodex, which is very close in formulation and performance to real black powder, are some sort of funky rocket fuel like concoction. They have a good amount of power but make sure to fire whole intact pellets. They are formulated and designed to fire as whole pellets other wise performance is erratic at best. downright dangerous at worse, and dangerous overall. NA]

Pyrodex is not classified as an explosive like real black powder so it is not subject to the same strict storage requirements and hazmat fees that have driven many businesses and individuals to not want to bother dealing with it. As a result Pyrodex is cheap, widely available. It works fine as a substitute when real black powder can not be found.

777 (triple 7) Is a hot high pressure sugar concoction that burns a lot cleaner than any of the Pyrodex products but can also leave a real hard ring of crud that is hard to clean if you don't keep on top things. I do not know or remember off hand the nature of their pellets but when using 777 powder the manufacturer recommends using 15% less powder by volume than if you were using black powder. That is supposed to give an equivalent charge.

[(NA you are using cartridge cases) 777 is also harder to ignite than pyrodex or real black powder so I would make sure your ignition channels are nice and clean. I am not sure if it would work well in a flint lock type of ignition system unless it is at least primed with real black powder and even then I am not sure if it can be reliable enough. Others may have more info.]

Triple seven is a hot high performing cleaner burning powder than Pyrodex and black.

[ (NA you are using cartridge cases)It probably was made for inlines with straight direct ignition channels and may not ignite reliably with ignition systems that use flash channels which do not allow a hot enough spark to reach the charge. That being said many people do use it in standard percussion cap guns but not all standard percussion guns are the same.]

Since you are using cartridge cases you should not have any ignition problems. I wonder if Blackhorn 209, a hot very clean burning (almost smokeless) black powder substitute, would work better.

Since black powder and all the subs need to have zero gap between projectile and powder (projectile must be seated on top of powder) to fire without risk of dangerously high pressures (ie explosion) you will be limited to a specific volume of powder in accordance to the size of your cases however some people use fillers such as cream of wheat when a reduced charge for optimal performance is needed as well as a higher volume of powder than that reduced charge can provide alone without the use of a filler. In this way you can conjure up a charge that works best for you.

Is there a ton of this info already in this forum and other places in general ?
 
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I've only loaded .45 LC with BP, so my experience is very limited, but I stuck with actual FFFG (Goex) even though I had Pyrodex 'P' also. I knew actual BP would work fine, and it did.
 
In most cases there is little advantage to using Pyrodex or 777 instead of real black. All are hygroscopic, will corrode, and need immediate cleaning. I'm about to start playing with Blackhorn which is actually a smokeless bp sub. Pyrodex, at least the original formulation, was extremely pressure sensitive, so much so that I had to develop a ramrod with a spring arrangement so I could seat the balls uniformly. I'd make sure the loads in cartridges were exactly the same and provided some compression by the seated bullet. I'd suggest a lube like that made by TC, or CVA to keep fouling soft. Wash cases in soap and water immediately and don't worry if they turn black.
 
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No experience reloading BP cartridges. Only muzzle loaders. I did learn that , after spending all day in the woods on a rainy day, BP worked much better than the substitutes. And BP has better accuracy.
 
"Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as blackpowder. To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%" If a powder delivers more velocity for the same volume, it has to be producing more pressure. Because science.

ns.hodgdon.com/loading.html

Other than the ability to get it at Cabela's, or wherever, there is ZERO benefit to the substitutes. Rodwah's friend's steel plates in his mother's basement provides ZERO useful evidence. BP AND its substitutes are corrosive. Period.

Old Eynsford and Swiss, as mentioned above, deliver at least as good and likely better performance than any of the substitutes. Granularity, in these brands at least, offers a much better and more consistent indication of burn rate than the subs. If you are loading limited amounts of pistol caliber cartridges, T7 is not horrible, provided you use copious amounts of good lube. If you are going to use percussion pistols, and BP pistol and rifle cartridges, suck up the HAZMAT fees and get the real Holy Black. In any event, welcome to the dark side !
 
Once upon a time...,
Black powder was and is classified as an "explosive"...in fact it is the "low explosive" (you've probably seen signs reading Danger High Explosives) THEN lots of regulations on the shipping and storage of BP came about, and the small LGS, the Mom & Pop operations couldn't meet storage requirements nor justify the added shipping expenses, so they stopped carrying powder.

Then along came Pyrodex..., which IS black powder BUT has a much lower sulfur content, and a mixture of Potassium Nitrate and Potassium Percholorate.

Original European black powder, which was really a mixed gunpowder...we're talkin' like 15th century..., had very low or no sulfur, and needed a heated wire to set it off, so that was about 1400 degrees to the modern stuff which is detonated at under 900 degrees. So they reverse engineered black powder, and added the percholorate, and THUS....tougher to cause it to ignite, and when not compressed, it burned, instead of exploding. Then they added back a bit of the sulfur, so that caps could trigger it at a lower temp, and voila, it complied with all of the shipping and storage laws. LGS and Mom & Pop gunshops were back in business.

Alas though, it doesn't work well in flinters.... BUT you're loading cartridges and shells.

SO I've loaded both. I like magnum primers in .45 Colt Pyrodex P cartridges. Can't hurt. For shotshells, 70 grains of RS is 2.5 dram, which is a rather popular old black powder load for shotshells, from 3/4 of an ounce up to an ounce. I tried AA plastic shot cups and they melted something fierce in my shotgun barrels, and I simply could not get the plastic out, until a buddy gave me "original formula", Hoppe's #9 that his father had found. It originally had benzine, as cordite and black powder loaded shotshells with the early plastic wads would make a mess of barrels. Worked like a charm but you have to carefully dispose of the cleaning patches as benzine causes lung cancer.

So re-load shotshells with 1/2" actual fiber wads, OR maybe get some Gunscrubber or Brake Cleaner spray to be sure you can melt out the plastic hull residue.

LD
 
"Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as blackpowder. To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%" If a powder delivers more velocity for the same volume, it has to be producing more pressure. Because science.

ns.hodgdon.com/loading.html

Other than the ability to get it at Cabela's, or wherever, there is ZERO benefit to the substitutes. Rodwah's friend's steel plates in his mother's basement provides ZERO useful evidence. BP AND its substitutes are corrosive. Period.

Old Eynsford and Swiss, as mentioned above, deliver at least as good and likely better performance than any of the substitutes. Granularity, in these brands at least, offers a much better and more consistent indication of burn rate than the subs. If you are loading limited amounts of pistol caliber cartridges, T7 is not horrible, provided you use copious amounts of good lube. If you are going to use percussion pistols, and BP pistol and rifle cartridges, suck up the HAZMAT fees and get the real Holy Black. In any event, welcome to the dark side !

I’d love to see your empirical evidence that T7 produces higher pressures.

I’d also like to see how you refute the evidence provided by the steel plates and state that T7 is just as corrosive.

I’m certainly not saying T7 isn’t corrosive, but it’s not nearly as quick setting as BP or Pyrodex, which was shown with the steel plates.

Oh, and your condescending remarks aren’t necessary. Not sure why you feel the need to be a prick.
 
I’d love to see your empirical evidence that T7 produces higher pressures.

I’d also like to see how you refute the evidence provided by the steel plates and state that T7 is just as corrosive.

I’m certainly not saying T7 isn’t corrosive, but it’s not nearly as quick setting as BP or Pyrodex, which was shown with the steel plates.

Oh, and your condescending remarks aren’t necessary. Not sure why you feel the need to be a prick.

The manufacturer has provided the empirical evidence.

And precisely because you are, as here in this very post, frequently quite arrogant, and offering poor information as in, for example, your Wayne's World corrosion test, your pompous presentation of often ill-informed views as expertise or fact requires address. You have opinions. Feel free to share them. As opinions, they are as valuable as what we paid to hear them. Try not to hold them in such high regard.
 
"Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as blackpowder. To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%" If a powder delivers more velocity for the same volume, it has to be producing more pressure. Because science.

ns.hodgdon.com/loading.html

Other than the ability to get it at Cabela's, or wherever, there is ZERO benefit to the substitutes. Rodwah's friend's steel plates in his mother's basement provides ZERO useful evidence. BP AND its substitutes are corrosive. Period.

Old Eynsford and Swiss, as mentioned above, deliver at least as good and likely better performance than any of the substitutes. Granularity, in these brands at least, offers a much better and more consistent indication of burn rate than the subs. If you are loading limited amounts of pistol caliber cartridges, T7 is not horrible, provided you use copious amounts of good lube. If you are going to use percussion pistols, and BP pistol and rifle cartridges, suck up the HAZMAT fees and get the real Holy Black. In any event, welcome to the dark side !

I’d love to see your empirical evidence that T7 produces higher pressures.

I’d also like to see how you refute the evidence provided by the steel plates and state that T7 is just as corrosive.

I’m certainly not saying T7 isn’t corrosive, but it’s not nearly as quick setting as BP or Pyrodex, which was shown.
The manufacturer has provided the empirical evidence.

And precisely because you are, as here in this very post, frequently quite arrogant, and offering poor information as in, for example, your Wayne's World corrosion test, your pompous presentation of often ill-informed views as expertise or fact requires address. You have opinions. Feel free to share them. As opinions, they are as valuable as what we paid to hear them. Try not to hold them in such high regard.

Post this empirical evidence please.

Arrogant??? Your words are misplaced.

Wayne’s world test? Please do explain how you’ve come up with this assumption? And at the same time please provide some evidence to the contrary.

I’ll-informed views as well. Where is your informed views? You have provided nothing to refute anything. You just run off at the mouth spewing drivel. This is The High Road, where it’s expected that members act with a bit of dignity. You’ve not done so. Maybe you should relax a bit, and come back with something more than your biting words.
 
Stop it. Take a breath. Read the information from the manufacturer that was provided. Reflect.
 
Mr. Michael tinker pearce, i think most of us (not all) will say that our experience with pyrodex wasnt always a good one. Its just has a fouling thats faster corroding than the the othet subs and black powder. I for one will never use it in any of my guns, some dont have any issues with it but as i live in a very humid environment i have had nothing but issues using it. But if you live in a dry arrid region then i suppose you may have a different experience and end up liking to use it. Although Tripple 7's usually more expensive...it is a whole lot cleaner burning and can make your shooting experience all the more enjoyable. It seems to burn a bit hotter than pyrodex grain for grain too. If youre dead set on shooting subs might i suggest you try Alliant Black MZ? Its very clean burning, its fouling isnt as fast or aggressive when it comes to being corrosive. I say this bcuz all black powder and subs are corrosive..some just work faster and more "aggressive" on the steel as rodwas post shows. His post pretty much shows the experience ive had with black powder and subs...with the pyrodex fouling being far worse on the steel. Black mz is very inexpensive if you go through sportsmans warehouse...its 9.99 a pound...so for about the same price as one pound of triple 7 you can get a pound of black mz shipped to you to try out. I personally prefer it over triple 7, basically all the benefits of triple 7 but way cheaper. Just my opinion on the matter, best of luck bud.
 
Stop it. Take a breath. Read the information from the manufacturer that was provided. Reflect.

That’s very funny. You are the one off the rails and I’m the one who should “stop it and take a breath.”

Oh, I’ve read all of that as well as what they used to have stated, which was much more in-depth, but now missing. Please show where they stated it created higher pressures over black powder.

I’d also like to see your proof that it is just as corrosive as BP or Pyrodex. Wait, nothing still? Nothing to show how wrong I am, and that I need to eat my words? Come on, something, right? Especially since you are this science expert...

Not once have you provided anything to contradict anything. Nothing. Are you just full of hot air and insults, behaving like a pissed off teenager? Come on, you must have something that has bolstered you and your rebellious antics. Something...
 
Stop it. Take a breath. Read the information from the manufacturer that was provided. Reflect.

What needs to be reflected on is your behavior. Maybe you should stop, take a breath, reflect, and learn something.
 
Did not see anything about APP American Pioneer Powder. I shoot cowboy action and shoot thousands of 45 colt, 44-40, 45-70 and 38-55 during the year. It is expensive but for me it is great for multi day shoots as I do not have to clean my pistols or rifles during matches or between days. In fact after a long drive home I may not get to cleaning for a few days after a shoot and have had no issues with corrosion. One exception is the powder itself or the fine residue you get while loading will stick to your dies or other metal and adhere to it like cement so I clean my equipment after every loading session.

This powder is very smokey. Way more than BP. It is much more accurate, especially in my long range rifles than BP.
 

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I have used many substitutes, and I also make black powder as many others in these forums do. I prefer real BP, but not that I believe it is any more or less corrosive than Pyrodex. I really don't care because I clean up my guns within a day of firing BP or Pyrodex. From my past experience, I can add a bit more credence to what rodwha says about 777. It is way less corrosive than BP. I frequently leave my inline muzzleloader somewhat dirty after shooting 777 pellets for a whole hunting season. I do run a spit patch followed by a dry patch down the bore after each shot before reloading. I can leave my inline loaded like that for a whole season and there are no ill effects at all. I clean it thoroughly at the end of ML season. I tried that once with BP (just one spit and dry patch) and, under the same conditions I had a light rust in the bore of my hawken after just 5 days, and that is in a temperature controlled safe. I pulled the ball, mopped the heck out of it, and lapped it a bit with some flitz, and there was no harm done. I'll never do that again with BP.
 
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+1 on what mr.offthehook said. APP is one of the very popular subs used by those who compete...and they need their guns to perform without a hitch and part of that is selecting the proper powder and lube combo. APP and Black MZ are somewhat similar (even have the same patent #) although for more power Black MZ has tested having higher chrono speeds, but both burn very very clean. If you ever attend the competitions you will see these subs especially APP at the shooting tables..and that alone tells you something.
 
Rodwha, this exactly the point. You've gone off half cocked. Again. You are ranting, have presented materials that have no bearing on T7, and have ignored the information from Hodgdon, the manufacturer, that doesn't fit your bizarre personal afront at anything that seems like a critique of T7. It's simply not rational behavior.
 
Rodwha, this exactly the point. You've gone off half cocked. Again. You are ranting, have presented materials that have no bearing on T7, and have ignored the information from Hodgdon, the manufacturer, that doesn't fit your bizarre personal afront at anything that seems like a critique of T7. It's simply not rational behavior.

The only one who has been going off half cocked is yourself.

What was presented had everything to do with your statement about “science”, your misinformed idea that velocity and pressure connected, which they are not.

Again you have not posted anything to refute what I’ve said or pointed out, or to backup what you cannot prove. Your statements have been baseless.

By all means do show me what I’ve ignored concerning Hodgdon’s product. I’ve asked a few times and you seem to just ignore it. My guess would be that there isn’t anything you can produce, but I’ll wait.

I’m also uncertain as to how you came about me disturbed by anything “negative” concerning T7. I’ve only been disturbed by your lack of civility and manners, that you haven’t been able to hold an adult conversation. But what you’ve stated at times is certainly untrue, and that I’d absolutely confront and with facts. You’ve not done this. Instead you just run off at the mouth and act like a child in need of time out.

By all means show me how I’m wrong and I’ll graciously accept it. But I’ll need more than “because you said so”, especially when there’s nothing to support it.
 
I'm starting to reload black powder into cartridges like .44 Colt and .450 Adams. My favorite LGS carried Pyrodex and Triple 7. Of the two the Pyrodex is much less expensive.

Can someone school me on the differences and relative merits/issues with these two powders?

I’m sorry that I allowed that fellow to drag this thread off course. I’ll ignore anything else not backed up by facts so that your thread can hopefully return to its intended direction and give you the answers you were looking for. My apologies.
 
Pyrodex is just nasty stuff, I don't care for T7 as it's harder to ignite and leaves a nasty hard crusty residue but if I couldn't get real black powder T7 is the best choice I've tried that is available.

Of all the subs I ever tried APP was the best although it may have been a little underpowered but I don't think it's available anymore.
 
The only one who has been going off half cocked is yourself.

What was presented had everything to do with your statement about “science”, your misinformed idea that velocity and pressure connected, which they are not.

.

Your reaction to critique of a BP substitute product is irrational and you are unhinged. I guess this is why there's an ignore button. Expelliarmus!

And, in the unlikely event that anyone else is interested, page 73 of the attached paper clearly shows graphs representing the relationship between pressure and velocity in internal ballistics.

http://www.wydawnictwa.ipo.waw.pl/cejem/Vol-12-Number-1-2015/Trebinski1.pdf
 
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Your reaction to critique of a BP substitute product is irrational and you are unhinged. I guess this is why there's an ignore button. Expelliarmus!

And, in the unlikely event that anyone else is interested, page 73 of the attached paper clearly shows graphs representing the relationship between pressure and velocity in internal ballistics.

http://www.wydawnictwa.ipo.waw.pl/cejem/Vol-12-Number-1-2015/Trebinski1.pdf

Oh, good grief! Seriously?!?! Talk about using something irrelevant. How does that even remotely touch on the subject of how these powders compare to BP?

Sure, it’s quite simple that by increasing the pressure you will increase the velocity. But that has absolutely nothing to do with what you were arguing about.

If you look at just the few pages I posted you will see that pressures vary and don’t work the way you inflected. Or maybe you didn’t bother to look at what I put before you.

You still have not provided anything to show that T7 produces higher pressures than BP. I’m still waiting.

https://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_pressure.htm

This is your statement:

“If a powder delivers more velocity for the same volume, it has to be producing more pressure. Because science.”

Had you have said T7, with the same volume of powder, likely creates more pressure than standard Goex, Schuetzen, Elephant, or some other standard lower energy powder I would agree with you, though I pointed out velocity isn’t a direct indicator of pressure as each powder differs from the next. And as there isn’t any published data on T7 pressures all one can do is make assumptions anyway, though clearly they don’t exceed higher energy powders as they’d have to provide a clear warning, which they do not. But those aren’t the only black powders. What is stated about a 15% reduction is to equate to the more common low energy BP. Swiss was the only higher energy powder and very uncommon here in the US outside of competition. If they were to include Swiss and Olde E they’d need to rewrite that.

I’m guessing we are looking at this and speaking from different points. It would help if the statements were more direct and less vague.
 
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