COL Too Short For Starting Charge? (9mm)

I bought some (just a sample - 60 bullets or so) 115gr RN Hi-Tek coated bullets from Chey-Cast Bullets.

I'm loading for a Walther PPQ - which seems to be well-known (amongst PPQ owners) as having a short [freebore? leade? some other term?] - whatever the right term is. What I've loaded for this gun before has ended up being short. In one case my Zero Bullets 124gr FMJ RN are loaded to 1.090" and Zero has a 115gr JHP I load to 1.079".

I just did some die setup / plunk testing on these 115gr RN coated bullets and they don't plunk until I get to 1.035".

I was going to use HP-38. Hodgdon's website lists 4.3gr (min) to 4.8gr (max) for 115gr LRN - with a tested COL of 1.100".

With that short of a COL that I need to get to (1.035") do folks think I should start out lower than Hodgdon's min of 4.3gr? Or do you think I'm good to go with starting at 4.3gr for load workup?

Thx.

OR

^^^^ Interesting exercise:

For my go-to Zero Bullets 115gr JHP load I have .200" of the bullet shank in the case.

For these coated bullets I have .262" of bullet shank in the case. So a good amount smaller case volume with these coated bullets as compared to my JHP load.

When I put all this data in QuickLoad - while QL doesn't show me over max at 4.3gr HP-38 - it's quite high. I'm leaning towards starting at 4.0gr HP-38.

QL Reports:
3.8gr 1,062 ft/sec
3.9gr 1,082 ft/sec
4.0gr 1,102 ft/sec
4.1 gr 1,124 ft/sec

@Dudedog - your gut seems quite accurate!

Not sure about the type of steel the barrel is made out of. I'm reluctant to have that sort of work done on it. So far I've been able to produce the kind of loads I want for it. Although I've got a good supply of jacketed bullets, coated bullets intrigue me (cost) so if I can make them work that would be fun / another option.

rfwobbly said:

Well, it's like I tell my CZ owners... part of "reloading" is learning that you can't just shoot "any old bullet".

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I definitely learned a lot about this with the PPQ - the scary way......

I know this is very much badness on my part: I started loading almost 5 years ago. The PPQ was new to me as well. 9mm was the 2nd caliber I loaded for - but it was my first pistol caliber. I had the PPQ and a Hi Power in 9mm. I set up my dies, made dummy rounds, and checked function in the *Hi Power*. They all chambered fine. Cycled fine when racking the slide by hand. I figured I was good to go. I (very very) incorrectly thought that if rounds would fit in one 9mm I didn't need to do anything else.

I load up about 20 rounds - my first 9mm rounds ever. I go to the range. Put ~5 rounds through the Hi Power - perfect. Grinnin' ear-to-ear. Load a few in the PPQ. First shot is ok (I don't know why, in hindsight.) Next one not only doesn't go into battery (trigger pull does not result in firing pin fall) the slide is JAMMED. And I mean REALLY jammed. I cannot get that thing open. I try for like 20 mins and it will not budge. I'm freaking out - because there is a live round in the chamber. I can't fire it. And I can't open it to eject it. I finally get it open (I believe - but haven't tried specifically after that event - that one can disengage the extractor for this situation. If so I may have done so accidentally.) So at least I'm leaving the range with a safe gun. But I am now processing 1/ what have I screwed up with regards to my loads (i.e. what don't I understand) and 2/ did I hurt the gun?

I now know the Hi Power, when compared to the PPQ, has this gloriously generous leade. And that whativer I load for the PPQ I'm going to be dealing with COLs that are not "in the book". Which is what lead me to start this thread: It's one thing to know when your COL needs to be short. But at what point does one conclude one needs to have a starting charge below what is in the manual(s)? This thread has helped in that regard - immensely. I'm concluding it's a variety of manual searching, internet searching, and even playing around with QuickLoad to see if one can get a feel for how things might behave. I know, definitely, QL is not a replacement for published load manual. But in this situation it gave me "another set of data" to help decide what a reasonable starting point is.

Thx all.

Well - to put a bow on this - I thought I'd give the results of loads I just finished testing at the range. I brought my chrono.

Reminder: 115gr Chey-Cast Coated Round Nose; 1.035" COL, Walther PPQ M2 5" Barrel, HP-38 Powder

3.8gr 1,125 ft/sec (Avg)
3.9gr 1,136 ft/sec
4.0gr 1,146 ft/sec

I had 10 rounds loaded to 4.1gr but I decided not to shoot them. It seemed like I was pushing that bullet pretty darn fast.

I haven't decided what I'm going to do next. I might just completely abandon the idea of using this bullet. If I decide to try and keep moving forward with it I would tend to do some testing below the 3.8gr level. The velocity from the 3.8gr load is high enough I wonder if I shouldn't try to find something a bit lighter.

OR

Cemetery21 said:

PM me if you would like a sample of Acme coated 115 round nose. I have a bunch and they might have a different profile that would work. I load them with 4.2gr. 231 for a very light target load. I load them at 1.115" for a 1911.

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Thanks for the offer!

BC17A said:

SNS has a 115 grain CRN that has the perfect profile for short leade barrels, and less $$ than what you paid from Chey. I use these in my R-51 as it's like your Walther, it has very little/no leade. I load these to 1.115" and they plunk about .020" shy of the leade. At 1.115" the bullet is .2" in the case so they can go shorter if need be. Also, loaded with 5 to 5.2 grains of BE-86 they are much more accurate than any load of HP-38 I tested.

https://www.snscasting.com/new-red-9mm-115-grain-round-nose-coated-1000ct/

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Thanks for the pointer!

I've already placed an order for a sample from Bayou. From looking at the picture of their 115gr RN the profile looks such that they will be longer - enabling less bullet base to be in the case.

I'm not totally sure why all-of-a-sudden I've gotten this bug to find a coated bullet that works. I've currently got a good stock of jacketed bullets. But having a cheap way of getting an even better inventory of stuff to plink with sounds appealing/wise.

OR

I thought I'd do yet another follow-up. The Bayou 115gr RNs just arrived and I did a fitting to my Walther PPQ barrel.

I haven't loaded - let alone fired - any test rounds. But just from figuring out what fits in my gun I'm very very enthused.

They plunk at a COL of 1.100. But more importantly, when I do the various math to figure out how much of the bullet is out of the case vs how much is in the case - the bullet base of these Bayous does not go in as deeply as it needed to for the Chey-Cast 115s. The Bayou's have .222" or so of the bullet in the case. The Chey-Cast had to have .262" of the bullet in the case. So I've got more case volume with the Bayous than I did with the Chey-Cast.

PLUS: The Chey-Cast have a groove - which made getting lead shavings seemingly inevitable - even though I was belling what seemed like quite a bit. Out of the 5 dummy rounds I made with the Bayous I got no lead shaving at all. (No groove in the Bayous.)

Bayou on the left - Chey-Cast on the right.

One point I feel compelled to make: I'm not, in all of this, casting any stones at Chey-Cast or making any comment about their product. A couple of friends I have use Chey-Cast products and speak *very* highly of them. I was wanting to do business with them as a result. My reports here are more focused on documenting my experiences trying to get a lightweight coated bullet in a short/no leade chamber.