Duncan, OK Man Guilty Of Form 4473 Violation

alsaqr · May 21, 2019

A federal court found Chad Wayne Kaspereit guilty of two counts of lying on form 4473. He lied twice on Form 4473 by falsely claiming he was not under a victim protective order.

:Kaspereit, 34, of Duncan, received the conviction by a jury for possession of firearms while the subject of a victim protective order — a document issued by a court after a victim is abused, stalked or harassed ordering the pursuer to stop doing so or be punished — and for falsely filling out a federal form to purchase firearms, according to the United States Department of Justice. The charges stem from an investigation by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in conjunction with the Cleveland County District Attorney’s Office and the Oklahoma City Police Department. Assistant U.S. Attorneys K. McKenzie Anderson and Jacquelyn M. Hutzell prosecuted the case as part of Project Safe Neighborhoods, a program focusing on violent crime reduction efforts through the Department of Justice.

“This office aggressively enforces the federal prohibition against possessing a firearm while under an active victim protection order,” said First Assistant U.S. Attorney Troester. “This case and others like it will protect victims from further abuse and protect law enforcement officers who respond to domestic calls. I want to thank the Oklahoma City Police Department, ATF, the Cleveland County District Attorney’s Office, and especially the prosecutors in my office for working together to seek justice in this important case.”"

https://www.duncanbanner.com/news/j...cle_1d177d54-78e6-11e9-b73b-ffcb71bf858a.html

Good on the federal prosecutor.

sota · May 21, 2019

I think this fits with the common mantra of... enforce the laws on the books.

sota · May 22, 2019

Now, the cynical part of me wonders... does the guy deserve to be a prohibited person? VPO's can all to easily be abused... just ask anyone who's gotten a contentious divorce.

LNK · May 22, 2019

sota said:
Now, the cynical part of me wonders... does the guy deserve to be a prohibited person? VPO's can all to easily be abused... just ask anyone who's gotten a contentious divorce.

As always with these stories, we are left without the whole picture. Perhaps we could be told why the VPO was issued. You are right, could be a divorce that is ugly, then again, he could be a violent stalker. But we'll never know, will we.

Hunter86004 · May 22, 2019

A couple of years ago, I was being 'audited' by BATF and mentioned that I had a customer I was doing a transfer for that filled out the 4473, but did not have a current form of ID, so I sent him off to renew his Arizona ID card as his drivers license was suspended. After not hearing from him for almost a month and his not responding to phone calls and emails, I checked him out through the Arizona Supreme Court web site and discovered he had been released from prison after serving time for a felony drug conviction two years prior to attempting to buy a gun.

Anyway, when I asked the auditor/industry specialist what happens when someone lies on the 4473, I was told they don't worry about it as long as the person does not receive the firearm. If that is their usual practice, there must be more to this case than meets the eye.

Choctaw · May 22, 2019

Whether he deserved the PO or not, he still violated it. Twice. That should tell you something about him. His willingness to break a law is a clue.

I have worked POs for many years in Texas. Here there are a number of steps necessary to be granted a protective order including application, thorough victim interviews, statements, pictures of injuries and police records. If the victim was involved in a divorce or child custody she was referred to her civil attorney. We didn't become involved in that. After all of these items have been reviewed, only then is it decided if we will proceed with a PO hearing. I would say of all the applications I have worked, only 35-40 percent actually make it to a district court hearing. Of those, 100% of the victims deserved to be protected.

Basically, if you slug a family member you don't deserve to have a firearm. There are certain consequences to every action.

WestKentucky · May 22, 2019

My question is in the fine print. A hot divorce is a good example of where this could happen, so I will run with that.

Husband yells at wife in a fight. Wife feels threatened and gets an EPO from the sheriffs office. What happens if the guy is already in the gun shop buying his gun when the EPO is signed? He has no knowledge that the wife has gone to the cops, or that there’s an EPO against him. Is he still violating federal law by buying the gun before he is served with papers?

Again, we don’t know the whole story on this. Man yells at woman leads us to believe he is the aggressor, but what if it’s the wife getting her boyfriend to go after the husband so husband buys gun to protect himself.

It’s a complicated and twisted world we live in and a lie is accepted as truth until truth prevails, no matter if we have innocent until proven guilty, it’s a societal and social thing.

alsaqr · May 22, 2019

sota said:
Now, the cynical part of me wonders... does the guy deserve to be a prohibited person? VPO's can all to easily be abused... just ask anyone who's gotten a contentious divorce.

Yep, according to some on these gun boards wives and girlfriends often lie. Let's forget about the guys who beat their wives and kids. :neener:

From the link:

"The jury further learned Kaspereit threatened his second wife with the handguns."

Choctaw · May 22, 2019

Again for Texas, permanent and emergency protective orders can only be granted for assault family violence, sexual assault or stalking. That's it. Oh, and it must be considered stalking by law enforcement. Just because a victim says he/she is being stalked doesn't make it so. Raising one's voice or giving dirty looks doesn't count.

alsaqr · May 22, 2019

Hunter86004 said:
If that is their usual practice, there must be more to this case than meets the eye.

The perp received firearms.

"“Relying on Kaspereit’s false statement, Academy sold Kaspereit a Taurus Judge .45 caliber revolver and a Taurus PT 738 .380 pistol."

ClickClickD'oh · May 22, 2019

LNK said:
As always with these stories, we are left without the whole picture. Perhaps we could be told why the VPO was issued. You are right, could be a divorce that is ugly, then again, he could be a violent stalker. But we'll never know, will we.

Ten seconds and Google says: "Kaspereit, Chad Wayne, 33, was charged with domestic assault and battery with a dangerous weapon and domestic assault and battery."

So, no.. I'm pretty sure we can stop white knighting this guy.

Choctaw · May 22, 2019

WestKentucky said:
My question is in the fine print. A hot divorce is a good example of where this could happen, so I will run with that.

Husband yells at wife in a fight. Wife feels threatened and gets an EPO from the sheriffs office. What happens if the guy is already in the gun shop buying his gun when the EPO is signed? He has no knowledge that the wife has gone to the cops, or that there’s an EPO against him. Is he still violating federal law by buying the gun before he is served with papers?

Again, we don’t know the whole story on this. Man yells at woman leads us to believe he is the aggressor, but what if it’s the wife getting her boyfriend to go after the husband so husband buys gun to protect himself.

It’s a complicated and twisted world we live in and a lie is accepted as truth until truth prevails, no matter if we have innocent until proven guilty, it’s a societal and social thing.

Uh, law enforcement doesn't grant EPOs. The courts do.

NMPOPS · May 22, 2019

Choctaw said:
Uh, law enforcement doesn't grant EPOs. The courts do.

Actually, in some states the Sheriff's Office can issue an EPO that is effective only until the Courts open. Often these are issued on weekends.

LNK · May 22, 2019

ClickClickD'oh said:
Ten seconds and Google says: "Kaspereit, Chad Wayne, 33, was charged with domestic assault and battery with a dangerous weapon and domestic assault and battery."

So, no.. I'm pretty sure we can stop white knighting this guy.

Pretty sure you don't know what white knighting means, either that or you replied to the wrong post :fire:

Choctaw · May 22, 2019

NMPOPS said:
Actually, in some states the Sheriff's Office can issue an EPO that is effective only until the Courts open. Often these are issued on weekends.

Didn't know that. We have judges 24 hours a day (you may have to wake them up). Plus, if you are arrested on Friday night an there is no judge available to set bond, you don't get out until Monday.

Also, in my state you have to be under custodial arrest for assault family violence, sexual assault or stalking for a magistrate to issue an EPO. If you are released and one hasn’t been issued, then the victim must apply to a district court for a permanent protective order.

alsaqr · May 22, 2019

The perp in this case is not an easy learner. Perp lied on the form 4473, bought some guns and threatened the ex wife with same. i hope the federal judge gives the perp consecutive sentences. He is also facing Oklahoma charges for violation of the protective order.

In OK the law enforcement officer can issue an emergency order of protection but needs the approval of a judge.

waterhouse · May 22, 2019

WestKentucky said:
Husband yells at wife in a fight. Wife feels threatened and gets an EPO from the sheriffs office. What happens if the guy is already in the gun shop buying his gun when the EPO is signed? He has no knowledge that the wife has gone to the cops, or that there’s an EPO against him. Is he still violating federal law by buying the gun before he is served with papers?

It may vary by state, but here the court issues an EPO and it isn’t valid until served.

Madcap_Magician · May 23, 2019

waterhouse said:
It may vary by state, but here the court issues an EPO and it isn’t valid until served.

I think it's pretty universal in the US that a court process isn't active until it's been served on the recipient, although that doesn't necessarily mean it's been served in person.

FlSwampRat · May 23, 2019

ClickClickD'oh said:
Ten seconds and Google says: "Kaspereit, Chad Wayne, 33, was charged with domestic assault and battery with a dangerous weapon and domestic assault and battery."

Strange and sad if Google knows but the NICS system doesn't.

old lady new shooter · May 23, 2019

LNK said:
Pretty sure you don't know what white knighting means, either that or you replied to the wrong post

He probably meant whitewashing.

deadin · May 23, 2019

Strange and sad if Google knows but the NICS system doesn't.

I really don't think I would want my background check to be based on a Google search.......
This actually shows one of the weaknesses in the NICS system. Eveyrbody everywhere in the country doesn't post to it in a timely fashion. (If at all.)

alsaqr · May 23, 2019

Charles Wayne Kaspereit was subject to victim protective orders issued in Cleveland and Stephens counties of Oklahoma. He violated both.

Someone failed to report the perp to NICS.

Oklahoma ranks number four in the number of women murdered by former spouses/boyfriends. Victim orders of protection is not taken seriously in many jurisdictions here.

https://oklahoman.com/article/55463...-do-little-to-protect-abuse-victims-from-guns

FlSwampRat · May 23, 2019

alsaqr said:
Someone failed to report the perp to NICS.

This is also how the shooter in Parkland was able to get a firearm. He had been expelled for bringing bullets to school. I like background checks if they work. If they don't work, the system needs to be fixed so they do. As a firearms dealer, I don't want to sell a gun to someone who shouldn't have one. Felon, abuser, druggie, whatever, if you're not a legal candidate for ownership, I don't want to provide one and then find out about it having been tragically misused and killing or wounding someone in the media.

FlSwampRat · May 23, 2019

sota said:
I think this fits with the common mantra of... enforce the laws on the books.

And fix the system surrounding the laws so they can be implemented and enforced.

Spats McGee · May 30, 2019

WestKentucky said:
My question is in the fine print. A hot divorce is a good example of where this could happen, so I will run with that.

Husband yells at wife in a fight. Wife feels threatened and gets an EPO from the sheriffs office. What happens if the guy is already in the gun shop buying his gun when the EPO is signed? He has no knowledge that the wife has gone to the cops, or that there’s an EPO against him. Is he still violating federal law by buying the gun before he is served with papers?. . . .

As is so often the case in legal matters, the Devil is in the details. The US Attorney will argue that he did, his attorney will argue that he didn't, and the judge will decide. I'd wager on a Not Guilty verdict because of the knowledge issue. As far as these orders go, 18 USC 922 is pretty specific:

Congress said:
(g) It shall be unlawful for any person-- . . . .
(8) who is subject to a court order that--
(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had an opportunity to participate;
(B) restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child; and
(C)(i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or
(ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or
(9) who has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence,

18 U.S.C.A. § 922 (West)(emphasis supplied & edited for brevity)

Madcap_Magician said:
I think it's pretty universal in the US that a court process isn't active until it's been served on the recipient, although that doesn't necessarily mean it's been served in person.

I'd agree with this. Due Process demands notice and an opportunity to be heard. Unless and until an order is served, it's not usually effective.

Duncan, OK Man Guilty Of Form 4473 Violation

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