40 s&w powder?

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ohihunter2014 said:
Just looking to duplicate factory loads. :)
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In the Witness Elite Match I used to have all weights were pussycats to shoot at factory levels. In the XD subcompact I used to have some loads were brutal, and in that I preferred the 180s.

After not having a .40 for many years, I now have an FNS-40 (Dadgum rascals put it on sale), and like the 180s in it when shooting full power loads.

I never did like flash and blast though. Same reason I don't have a .357 Sig any more. :)
 
Walkalong said:
In the XD subcompact I used to have some loads were brutal, and in that I preferred the 180s.
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I heard that about the subcompacts. The Kahr I have is a bit like that.....the Ruger just the opposite. A friend of mine who swore he'd never shoot a .40 again, stopped by my spot on the range last year, and I said hey, Bruce, come and try my new Ruger, 9mm. (Snicker) ... He shot a mag and said, nice gun, how much did you pay? He couldn't believe it when he looked at the box of Winchester Factory .40 180 gr. flat points he just shot. :)

I don't sell my pistols any more. I sold a Colt 70 Series Gold Cup cause I wanted a .45 I didn't mind wearing out. (Bought a Kimber)......been sorry ever since. Can't have too many pistols.
 
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Try some 180g bullets with 3.0g Red Dot/Titewad/Clays/Clay Dot. The will cycle the action and feel like you're shooting a 9mm Shield.
My favorite 40 S&W load is 180g (Lee 401-175-TC) cast with 5.6g BE-86 which gives me 1005 fps out of a 4.25" M&P40 full size. It is my favorite gun and the gun I shoot most accurately in a consistent manner meaning string after string of 10 shots <usually> within 3-4" @ 10 yards.

KYclNnmZ_o.jpg

I also have a 9mm Shield and quite honestly, 50 rounds of 120g bullets at 990 fps is more fatiguing to me than 200 rounds of 180g bullets at 1000 fps through the full size M&P40.

I like to shoot the Shield only enough to keep up the proficiency.
 
I had a love/meh relationship with my M&P40. I loved the feel of the gun and I liked the caliber of 40 S&W but I couldn't shoot it consistently accurate. One day I'd keep 'em well within the 10 ring, the next day or a couple mags later I would start flinching and put the holes everywhere on the paper. I had a 9mm barrel and some 9mm mags and could shoot more consistently better groups with it, but it felt like "cheating". For a few months I started shooting only the M&P40 while testing and developing loads for it and all of a sudden when I was testing BE-86, I suddenly started shooting consistently good. I then loaded some up with 6.0g and 6.4g and brought the chronograph out and saw that I was already above 1000 fps with 5.6g and the higher loads were giving me 15 and 40 fps higher with no benefit other than burning more powder.

So for me, the saying "beware the man with one gun" applies.

Unfortunately, I have two 45ACP's and four 9mm's but only one 40 S&W. I guess that's all that matters.
 
I dont have anything more than my anecdotal opinion, but....

I'm a fan of Unique (so ya know where I stand), and tried it in 40, since I like it so much in 9mmLuger, but I thought it kindof fell flat. It had a harsh bark in it's tone I didn't care for, but shot well enough.
The next I tried was Herco, and man did it shoot sweet. That was the day my buddy shot my chrony, so I didn't get any velocity data. But it was as accurate as anything, and was spittin 'em out with some real oomph. with 180gr JHP, the recoil was fairly stout, but it pushed instead of kicked, and was just so nice.
Felt just right, to me!
may be worth lookin into
 
ohihunter2014 said:
Just looking to duplicate factory loads.
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A medium burn rate powder, like Universal Clays, IMHO.

I understand why a person would desire to download 40S&W in a compact/subcompact gun. It's true - 40 recoils more than a 9 and the guns are small for caliber. It takes more grip strength than a similar 9. Your hands may hurt the next day after a significant number of cartridges are fired. If it's just practice or playing a bug gun game at your local range, by all means, download and gain an advantage. But, if you are practicing or training for CC, I would want to train with something that recoils similarly to defensive ammo. Medium burn rate powders make 980fps with 180's very easily, even in short barrels.
 
bds said:
Welcome back to the 40S&W club.

With so many police trade-in 40 caliber pistols, I anticipate a resurgence of 40S&W reloading.
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Yeah, that's what sucked me in. But I ended up buying a new stainless XD40 Mod.2 for hardly any more and it's my (current) favorite striker-fired gun. I got a .357 Sig barrel for it and that's a bucket of fun. Getting a 357 Sig barrel was always the end game for me. Being able to load and shoot 40 is just icing on the cake.
 
bbqreloader said:
May have missed it somewhere, but I use CFE-P, 165gr plated and avg 1040fps. Great practice round. Bounce between the RMR RNFP and Everglades plated FP, both work just fine.
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Anything in this burn-rate range works great in 40. CFE-P is close to BE86 in burn rate and makes terrific full-power stuff. Both typically benefit from being loaded to full-power levels, though. CFE-P leaves the cases a mess for me at this power level. HP38/Sport Pistol/Titegroup burn rate works better in my lighter loads.
 
rsrocket1 said:
Try some 180g bullets with 3.0g Red Dot/Titewad/Clays/Clay Dot. The will cycle the action and feel like you're shooting a 9mm Shield.
My favorite 40 S&W load is 180g (Lee 401-175-TC) cast with 5.6g BE-86 which gives me 1005 fps out of a 4.25" M&P40 full size. It is my favorite gun and the gun I shoot most accurately in a consistent manner meaning string after string of 10 shots <usually> within 3-4" @ 10 yards.

View attachment 842444

I also have a 9mm Shield and quite honestly, 50 rounds of 120g bullets at 990 fps is more fatiguing to me than 200 rounds of 180g bullets at 1000 fps through the full size M&P40.

I like to shoot the Shield only enough to keep up the proficiency.
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I run the same lee bullet with 4 grains of w231 in my m&p. I have shot thousands of these loads. Acurate with little recoil.
 
ray15 said:
Interesting, I've not tried 244. How close to max do you think this load is?
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Hodgdon shows a Berrys 180 Gr FP @ 1.125 OAL and a max of 5.3 for 244 and 5.1 for 231.

Hodgdon shows a Hornady 180 Gr XTP @ 1.125 OAL and a max of 5.0 for 244 and 5.0 for 231.

5.0 Grs of old (3 Lb metal can) W-231 gave me an average of 941 FPS vs 971 for the 244. Both were with the discontinued SNS lube groove 180 Gr TrFP @ 1.133 +/- OAL. They only offer the 180 Tr FP with no lube groove now.

Hodgdon online data seems to show the same thing, a little more velocity with W244 vs W231.

I would consider it max, even though it could likely go another tenth or two. 971 FPS is all I want form a 4" barrel with a 180 gr bullet. I'm perfectly happy with the 941 from the W-231. It has a nice short recoil impulse. So, I might bump 244 back a tenth.
 
I was doing a velocity test with W-231 vs W-244 for posting here and I did it in 9MM & .40. The 5.0 Grs of W-231 with the coated TrFP was a favorite and very accurate load for me, so I tried 5.0 Grs of W-244 side by side with it.

I used to shoot the Precision 180 Gr TrFP, but they switched over to the no lube groove before SNS did. Missouri Bullet still offers the lube groove 180 Gr TrFP if it matters.
 
Walkalong said:
Hodgdon shows a Berrys 180 Gr FP @ 1.125 OAL and a max of 5.3 for 244 and 5.1 for 231.

Hodgdon shows a Hornady 180 Gr XTP @ 1.125 OAL and a max of 5.0 for 244 and 5.0 for 231.

5.0 Grs of old (3 Lb metal can) W-231 gave me an average of 941 FPS vs 971 for the 244. Both were with the discontinued SNS lube groove 180 Gr TrFP @ 1.133 +/- OAL. They only offer the 180 Tr FP with no lube groove now.

Hodgdon online data seems to show the same thing, a little more velocity with W244 vs W231.

I would consider it max, even though it could likely go another tenth or two. 971 FPS is all I want form a 4" barrel with a 180 gr bullet. I'm perfectly happy with the 941 from the W-231. It has a nice short recoil impulse. So, I might bump 244 back a tenth.
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Doesn't sound like much a burn rate difference. In my testing it seems like 231 delivers less velocity than the other powders I have in its burn rate range, like Titegroup or Sport Pistol at a given pressure. This seems true in both 38 special and 40 tests. 231 also seems to shoot softer to me in the comparisons. It sounds like 244 is more like the other newer powders. Since I've tried most other things in this burn rate range a bottle of 244 will probably follow me home at some point.
 
Okay gents I spoke with my brother and he says he wants to load these to shoot just like a factory round or factory SD rounds would do. I am leaning more towards the RMR package so he may try them all but still have to check with him. It seems the 180gr bullets seem to be everyone's go to bullet for lighter recoil and accuracy. He just wants to train and shoot Defensive pistol shoots. When I mentioned lower recoil rounds he said no, I want full power, factory velocity. We still agreeing on the 180gr bullets then?


https://www.rmrbullets.com/shop/bullets/pistol/40-10mm/40-180-165-155-gr-mixed-fmj-bullets-pulled/
 
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ohihunter2014 said:
want full power, factory velocity.
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For decades, I have used WSF to load duplicate full power factory loads using bulk Golden Saber/Gold Dot HP bullets for range practice. In recent years, BE-86 replaced WSF due to greater accuracy loads BE-86 produced.

BUT, keep in mind factory pressure testing conducted for published load data were done using NEW brass and we are reloading with USED mixed range brass with unknown reload history and condition of brass (Especially 40S&W known more prone for case wall failure/rupture aka KaBoom). While I reserve known once-fired brass (Brass I saw go from factory box to pistol) for full power max loads; with mixed range brass, I tend to use mid-to-high range load data for pressure buffer. Be safe.


Here's Hodgdon's load data for WSF - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
  • 180 gr BERB FP WSF COL 1.125" Start 5.5 gr (952 fps) 27,600 PSI - Max 6.0 gr (1,020 fps) 33,500 PSI

Here's Speer load data for BE-86 - https://www.speer-ammo.com/download...0_caliber-10mm_400_dia/40_SmithWesson_180.pdf
  • 180 gr Speer TMJ BE-86 COL 1.120" Start 4.9 gr 879 fps - Max 6.0 gr 1026 fps

Speer load data for 165 gr - https://www.speer-ammo.com/download...caliber-10mm_400_dia/40_Smith__Wesson_165.pdf

Speer load data for 155 gr - https://www.speer-ammo.com/download...caliber-10mm_400_dia/40_Smith__Wesson_155.pdf

ohihunter2014 said:
We still agreeing on the 180gr bullets then?
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Yes, but I have also used 155/165 gr bullets. At higher velocity full power loads, 180 gr bullet will produce more of a heavy "thump" felt recoil compared to more snappy recoil from 155/165 gr loads.
 
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ohihunter2014 said:
my brother ... wants to load these to shoot just like a factory bullet or factory SD round would do.
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Then he can load them himself. :D (And you know we don't endorse reloading for anyone else on THR ;) I load for my immediate family but their guns have not blown up yet. :))

With mixed range brass of unknown reload history and condition of brass (Think case wall expansion/resize vs work hardening vs case wall thickness/thinness), I would not advise max load data.

If he wants the duplication of snappy felt recoil of factory ammunition, you can use faster burn rate powders which will produce plenty of snappy recoil. I used Red Dot/Promo for 40S&W during component shortage and didn't like the snappy recoil they produced. I much prefer the slower "push" from more slower burning powders like W231/HP-38/Sport Pistol for target loads. For higher velocity loads, WSF and BE-86 are flexible enough to produce accuracy at mid-to-high range load data.
 
bds said:
Then he can load them himself. :D (And you know we don't endorse reloading for anyone else on THR ;) I load for my immediate family but their guns have not blown up yet. :))

With mixed range brass of unknown reload history and condition of brass (Think case wall expansion/resize vs work hardening vs case wall thickness/thinness), I would not advise max load data.

If he wants the duplication of snappy felt recoil of factory ammunition, you can use faster burn rate powders which will produce plenty of snappy recoil. I used Red Dot/Promo for 40S&W during component shortage and didn't like the snappy recoil they produced. I much prefer the slower "push" from more slower burning powders like W231/HP-38/Sport Pistol for target loads. For higher velocity loads, WSF and BE-86 are flexible enough to produce accuracy at mid-to-high range load data.
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Oh yes, he is loading these himself. I am just helping him purchase components, show him the basics and he can use my equipment whenever he wants. I don't load for anyone and when someone asks to shoot my guns I advise them these are reloads as long as your okay shooting them its fine.
 
bds said:
For decades, I have used WSF to load duplicate full power factory loads using bulk Golden Saber/Gold Dot HP bullets for range practice. In recent years, BE-86 replaced WSF due to greater accuracy loads BE-86 produced.

BUT, keep in mind factory pressure testing conducted for published load data were done using NEW brass and we are reloading with USED mixed range brass with unknown reload history and condition of brass (Especially 40S&W known more prone for case wall failure/rupture aka KaBoom). While I reserve known once-fired brass (Brass I saw go from factory box to pistol) for full power max loads; with mixed range brass, I tend to use mid-to-high range load data for pressure buffer. Be safe.


Here's Hodgdon's load data for WSF - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
  • 180 gr BERB FP WSF COL 1.125" Start 5.5 gr (952 fps) 27,600 PSI - Max 6.0 gr (1,020 fps) 33,500 PSI

Here's Speer load data for BE-86 - https://www.speer-ammo.com/download...0_caliber-10mm_400_dia/40_SmithWesson_180.pdf
  • 180 gr Speer TMJ BE-86 COL 1.120" Start 4.9 gr 879 fps - Max 6.0 gr 1026 fps

Speer load data for 165 gr - https://www.speer-ammo.com/download...caliber-10mm_400_dia/40_Smith__Wesson_165.pdf

Speer load data for 155 gr - https://www.speer-ammo.com/download...caliber-10mm_400_dia/40_Smith__Wesson_155.pdf


Yes, but I have also used 155/165 gr bullets. At higher velocity full power loads, 180 gr bullet will produce more of a heavy "thump" felt recoil compared to more snappy recoil from 155/165 gr loads.
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Thanks, BDS for this info. I wasn't aware that 40 S&W had such issues with case failure. He is cheap just like me so most likely going to use plated bullets and I already told him he cannot push those very fast. His reply was then Ill get some HST or the like bullets and use those here and there. I don't see this happening because he's already not super happy of the price of things. I don't hot rod anything but rifle rounds for hunting and even with that a 5.56 case gets tossed after 5 firings to be safe. I will keep him toned down when it comes to hot rodding things.
 
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