Anybody had a problem when using mags at max capacity +1 ??

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TGT

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I'm having a problem with my new Sig P365. The trouble is that the factory magazine with the pinkie extension is falling out of the gun when firing full 10+1 capacity. I've been shooting autoloaders for many years without ever experiencing this in any other gun. Somebody on another forum was asking me if I was putting the magazine into the gun first and then releasing the slide on it, as a suggestion what I might try it that way. However, if you chamber the gun that way then you can't do the full 10+1 capacity. And besides, I can feel the magazine clicking in there firmly..

The 10 round magazine does need to be pushed very hard into the grip to drive it home when there is already a cartridge in the chamber. But I can feel and hear a very distinctive "click" letting me know that the magazine did fully engage and lock into the grip properly. I've had this same problem with the Sig 938 (which was a known problem with the Sig938 and had their service department quite busy.) I've never had this problem with any other tightly loaded guns, and I've owned many. I now carry the Sig365 magazine with the flat plate bottom and don't have this problem as with the pinkie extension.(the extended piece has pressure exerted onto it by your pinkie) I'm puzzled by this Sig problem, as nobody else seems to have reported experiencing it with the Sig 365 except me.
 
Im a little confused here. Are you talking about loading the gun and then topping off and reinserting the mag, so you get the +1, or are you talking about using a mag that has a +1 mag extension?
 
So one mag works and the other doesn't? Sounds like a magazine issue. Load the offending mag to full capacity and let it sit for a few days.
 
my p365 doesnt do that. never had a gun that did. what makes it come loose? i ask as....... if its clicked in and locked how can it come loose without hitting the mag release somehow while youre shooting?
 
Listen to your equipment. When a magazine needs "to be pushed very hard into the grip to drive it home", it's trying to tell you something.

Beretta, in some of their handgun manuals actually sort of half-heartedly suggests not loading to +1 capacity. I've got some guns that are designed so inserting a fully loaded mag into the gun when the slide is forward is "very hard". So I don't do it.

It's hard to get the mag in because the mag spring is fully compressed and there's not enough give to let the mag go into the gun without really jamming it in.

Think about how much upward pressure that puts on the slide. That pressure means more force is required to cycle the slide which can reduce reliability.
 
JohnKSa said:
Listen to your equipment. When a magazine needs "to be pushed very hard into the grip to drive it home", it's trying to tell you something.

Beretta, in some of their handgun manuals actually sort of half-heartedly suggests not loading to +1 capacity. I've got some guns that are designed so inserting a fully loaded mag into the gun when the slide is forward is "very hard". So I don't do it.

It's hard to get the mag in because the mag spring is fully compressed and there's not enough give to let the mag go into the gun without really jamming it in.

Think about how much upward pressure that puts on the slide. That pressure means more force is required to cycle the slide which can reduce reliability.
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that is good point, Sir. never thought about it that way.
 
#2 post; Wally I'll probably do that if I don't want to settle for the flat plate magazine. It's a PIA having to send guns in, but it might very well be this magazine catch issue as was the case with so many Sig 938's.

#3 post; Yes, I'm chambering the gun with a round from out of the flat bottom magazine. And then I'm inserting the other pinkie extension magazine loaded with 10 rounds into the grip until it clicks in solid. (Thus "10+1" )

#4 post; doubt it's a magazine problem the way it clicks into place, But I'll send in the pinkie mag in with the gun to be checked along with the mag catch ....if I do decide to send the gun in. I might just settle for the flat magazine and not ship the gun to Sig.

#5 post; I'll tell you how it happens with the Sig 938; When you firmly grip the curvature of the plastic pinkie finger extension, it exerts a constant downward pressure on the magazine as if you are pulling down on the magazine on its extension piece. Then to add to the problem, there is already pressure on the magazine having 10 rounds pushing away in opposite directions. So then when you fire a round, the recoil jostles the magazine catch so all the downward pressure pops it loose. This is what was happening with the 938 from what I understand. And they were replacing magazine catches to fix it..

6# I appreciate your input, but you're s guessing. Not trying to be rude, but I don't buy it as an explanation, because I've never seen a manufacturer telling us not to load their guns with +1 capacity. I've always loaded my SW1076, Sig229, Barretta 92s, G33, G27, Para P14 and others this +1 way with no problems. I think it would be preposterous that manufacturers would not expect many of us to load our defense guns for the highest capacity possible. The reliability of the cycling and function with this gun is otherwise amazing. Also, most folks now hold a pistol with the thumb of their left hand extended out firmly onto the slide without reliability issues. I think it takes a lot more then something rubbing against a slide to cause reliability problems. Having one extra round could be the round that saves your life. If I have to carry the flat bottom magazine so it stays in place without dropping out of the grip, and Sig can't fix it, then so be it and I'll not carry the pinkie extension magazine with it's downward pressure design that I suspect is causing too much stress on the magazine catch.

Thanks for the input gentlemen. I wanted to see if anybody had heard about this particular problem. So far, I'm the only one. I might just settle for carrying the gun with a flat bottom mag if that flat bottom mad fires another 100 rounds without a hiccup.
 
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AK103K said:
This isnt simply a handgun issue. Why do you think you download AR mags by a couple? You have the same issue trying to seat a fully loaded 30 round mag on a closed bolt.
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Heck, even 28 round mags arent easy to insert on a closed bolt till the springs get some use.

OP, you may find fewer issues once you spend some time using the mags and loosening the springs some. There are those who say leave the mags loaded for a few days or whatnot but I've found the best bet is just using the mags as intended, loading and unloading via rounds down range :)

Though if you're bored and want a thumb workout, reloading and unloading the mag a bunch while watching TV or whatever has helped with stiff mags in the past for me. In particular the low profile Wilson ETM 8 round mags I have
 
My EDC is a S&W Shield 9X19mm with the (8) Rd capacity magazine. I insert the magazine chamber a round and that's it, thus I don't top off the magazine. Years and years ago when I started conceal carry, it was with S&W K &J frame revolvers with capacities of (6) and (5) rounds. With the semiautomatic pistols the 1911 series 45ACP standard capacity (7) rounds and the BHP 9X19mm (13) rounds. Outside of my military service, I've never been involved in a shooting incident, now in my seventh decade. The additional round/topping off concept is highly overrated.
 
JohnKSa said:
Listen to your equipment. When a magazine needs "to be pushed very hard into the grip to drive it home", it's trying to tell you something.

Beretta, in some of their handgun manuals actually sort of half-heartedly suggests not loading to +1 capacity. I've got some guns that are designed so inserting a fully loaded mag into the gun when the slide is forward is "very hard". So I don't do it.

It's hard to get the mag in because the mag spring is fully compressed and there's not enough give to let the mag go into the gun without really jamming it in.

Think about how much upward pressure that puts on the slide. That pressure means more force is required to cycle the slide which can reduce reliability.
Click to expand...
Probably why the Beretta 92 and SIG P226 were originally 15 round guns and folks whined for years about why they were such low capacity compared to the Glock 17. Also probably why HK still uses 15 round mags for their full size 9mm pistols.
 
TGT said:
#4 post; doubt it's a magazine problem the way it clicks into place, But I'll send in the pinkie mag in with the gun to be checked along with the mag catch ....if I do decide to send the gun in. I might just settle for the flat magazine and not ship the gun to Sig.
Click to expand...

It may be clicking, but only partially, and the grip on the pinky extension assists in working the magazine loose. I had the same issue with the P938. At least a part of the sound is the top round forcefully hitting the bottom of the slide. I stopped going +1 with that gun, and I eventually got rid of it.

TGT said:
6# I appreciate your input, but you're s guessing. Not trying to be rude, but I don't buy it as an explanation, because I've never seen a manufacturer telling us not to load their guns with +1 capacity. I've always loaded my SW1076, Sig229, Barretta 92s, G33, G27, Para P14 and others this +1 way with no problems. I think it would be preposterous that manufacturers would not expect many of us to load our defense guns for the highest capacity possible. The reliability of the cycling and function with this gun is otherwise amazing. Also, most folks now hold a pistol with the thumb of their left hand extended out firmly onto the slide without reliability issues. I think it takes a lot more then something rubbing against a slide to cause reliability problems. Having one extra round could be the round that saves your life. If I have to carry the flat bottom magazine so it stays in place without dropping out of the grip, and Sig can't fix it, then so be it and I'll not carry the pinkie extension magazine with it's downward pressure design that I suspect is causing too much stress on the magazine catch.
Click to expand...

I was taught by a trained Beretta armorer in the early 1990s to not top off a Beretta 92. It was said to be ok during a gunfight, but not for standard long term purposes. I also have a Glock 30SF, and the 9 and 10 round magazines are almost impossible to fully load and to seat when fully loaded if the slide is closed. I do not top that gun off when using those magazines. Thirteen round Glock 21 magazines are fine in that gun, because those magazines have enough space in them to fit about a half of another cartridge when they are fully loaded.

I have a Sig P365, and the difficulty of loading the tenth round and of seating a full magazine with a closed slide has led me to decide to not top off the P365 for general carry for the reason expressed by JohnKSa-the gun is trying to tell me something. I have topped off for range sessions with no issues, but I only use flat base magazines. The gun is an amazing piece of equipment, and I do not view the inability to go +1 as a disadvantage.
 
Are you sure your grip/hand isn't hitting the mag release? The P365 is a small pistol and I've had to learn how to grip mine to keep my fat hand off the mag release.
 
AK103K said:
This isnt simply a handgun issue. Why do you think you download AR mags by a couple? You have the same issue trying to seat a fully loaded 30 round mag on a closed bolt.
Click to expand...

What issue are you referring to. A tight loading magazine is not an issue to me if the gun works. I've never had any "issue" topping off an AR15 with 30+1 or any of my other handguns with +1.Even when the fully loaded mags go in very tight, they all went bang and none fell out of the gun. Only my Sig 365 has made an "issue" out of +1 .

WYO said:
It may be clicking, but only partially, and the grip on the pinky extension assists in working the magazine loose. I had the same issue with the P938. At least a part of the sound is the top round forcefully hitting the bottom of the slide. I stopped going +1 with that gun, and I eventually got rid of it......
I have a Sig P365, and the difficulty of loading the tenth round and of seating a full magazine with a closed slide has led me to decide to not top off the P365 for general carry for the reason expressed by JohnKSa-the gun is trying to tell me something. I have topped off for range sessions with no issues, but I only use flat base magazines. The gun is an amazing piece of equipment, and I do not view the inability to go +1 as a disadvantage.
Click to expand...

I'll go back to the range, continue to top out with 10+1, and test only shooting with the flat base magazine. If it works reliably all the time for me, then PROBLEM SOLVED, and I accept firing flat base magazines only in this Sig365. To each his own, while I can forfeit an extra round with my Para P-14, I am not willing to do it with a 10 round gun. If I am faced with two armed thugs in a convenience store, knowing I have an 11th round is very important to me.

The more I think about it, the less I want to send the gun back to Sig for a mag-catch fix. I've had this same problem with a pinkie magazine in a Sig 938, and I've lost confidence now with the pinkie magazines in these Sigs.
 
Texas10mm said:
Are you sure your grip/hand isn't hitting the mag release? The P365 is a small pistol and I've had to learn how to grip mine to keep my fat hand off the mag release.
Click to expand...

You're right that I am contacting the mag release. I have observed that. But my mere contacting it is not the cause. When I try to simulate the exact hold and see if I can press the release button hard enough to activate it, it's not happening. Plus again, it doesn't happen with the flat base mag. The bottom line is that I am becoming very certain that this has something to do with only the pinkie extension magazines and an internal magazine catch that isn't holding it firm enough while my pinkie finger is pushing downward . I'll do more testing with flat base mags to isolate the problem and confirm it to be with the pinkie mags.
 
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I appreciate your input, but you're s guessing. Not trying to be rude, but I don't buy it as an explanation, because I've never seen a manufacturer telling us not to load their guns with +1 capacity. I've always loaded my SW1076, Sig229, Barretta 92s, G33, G27, Para P14 and others this +1 way with no problems. I think it would be preposterous that manufacturers would not expect many of us to load our defense guns for the highest capacity possible. The reliability of the cycling and function with this gun is otherwise amazing. Also, most folks now hold a pistol with the thumb of their left hand extended out firmly onto the slide without reliability issues. I think it takes a lot more then something rubbing against a slide to cause reliability problems. Having one extra round could be the round that saves your life. If I have to carry the flat bottom magazine so it stays in place without dropping out of the grip, and Sig can't fix it, then so be it and I'll not carry the pinkie extension magazine with it's downward pressure design that I suspect is causing too much stress on the magazine catch.
Click to expand...
1. Beretta doesn't SAY not to do it, they just suggest that it's better to not do it. But I'm not saying that's the reason why you shouldn't do it--just providing it as an example of input from a manufacturer.

2. I have lots of guns that I can load to +1 capacity with no problem. I have one that I can't. If a gun can handle it, why not do it? If a gun can't handle it--that's a very good reason not to do it. Regardless of what my other guns can handle and regardless of what the manufacturer says.

3. The reliability and cycling of the gun I have that doesn't tolerate +1 loading is otherwise amazing. Doesn't change anything in terms of getting a full mag locked into the gun with the slide forward.

4. I was not happy when I realized that the gun in question wasn't 15 +1, but only 15. I tried messing with getting the mag to lock in for awhile before I finally realized that I was just frustrating myself. Yes, that extra round could be the one that saves your life. I get it--but if the mag falls out, the rounds in that mag could be the ones you needed to save your life and now they're lying on the ground doing you no good at all. Or if the slide doesn't cycle properly, the delay getting the gun running again could be the time you needed to save your life.

5. Dragging the thumb on the slide intentionally probably isn't a good idea for the same reason that anything impeding the proper movement of the slide isn't a good idea. Maybe the gun will work with it most of the time, but maybe one time you aren't holding the gun just right and you get stoppage as the result of retarding the slide movement. It's better not to intentionally do things that can have a negative effect on reliability than to do them and just hope everything goes right in a gunfight.

There's no guessing about the fact that a lot of upward pressure on the slide from the top round in the magazine can slow the slide action. There's no guessing about the fact that slowing the slide action can have a negative effect on reliability. That doesn't mean it will jam every time--or even a lot of the time--but it is true that slide energy is what functions the gun and reducing that energy too much can prevent the gun from functioning.

See if SIG can help you--but if they can't resolve the problem with needing to push "very hard" to lock the mag in with the slide forward then I wouldn't load that gun to +1. Before you get all bent out of shape, keep in mind that I'm telling you what I would do and what I think is smart. It's your gun and you're certainly free to do whatever you want with it. I mean, some people juggle geese... :D
 
I have had a few .45s in the past (Glock 30, 30s) and some current 1911 8 round mags that fit very tight and function perfectly with +1.

But

Each time I seat the mag it does bend the rim of the top round, and some of my older carry ammo is quite chewed up because of that (well, the case is since I've shot and reloaded them since), which could theoretically cause some extraction problems if one did that enough.

Since I try to shoot my carry gun weekly, when I carry those guns it does lead to a swapping ammo annoyance or, in the case of my 1911, just downloading one.
 
During the late great VN dust up; when the 30 rnd 5.56 M16 mags came out, we soon learned to only load 28 or 29 rounds to avoid malfunction. Don't know what the final fix was.
 
It really comes down to the individual gun and magazine. Some work just fine full up + 1 in the chamber. Others don't. And different magazines with the same gun may be different. Some magazines need time for the springs to loosen up. I've had magazines that were impossible to fully load when new. I've been only able to load 12 or 13 rounds in some magazines that were supposed to be 15. At least at first. Come back a few hours later and I'd be able to get in 1 more. Then the next day one more, and a day later it would load to full capacity. But once loaded, and left loaded for a few days they were a lot easier to fully load thereafter.

You may have to down load by 1-2 rounds for reliable function. You just have to experiment and see what works.
 
Can you swap floor plates and then test them? If the problem persists with the mag that now has the extension, it would seem it is the release. If the problem persists with the original mag, it would likely just be that mag.

Good luck.
 
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You may be right, but I wouldn't completely discount contacting the mag release. Recoil may cause different contact of the release than a stable grip, especially with a light gun. As others have indicated, a full mag increases the likelihood with increased downward force, and the pinky grip gives an angle for the pinky to push down.

I recently had a Kahr pm40 that I contacted the release enough to drop the extended mag on recoil, but not the flat-base mags. I also wouldn't drop the mag shooting left-handed since no contact of the release ...

I would try exaggerated grips (thumbs out, thumb locked down) before sending it in ...



TGT said:
You're right that I am contacting the mag release. I have observed that. But my mere contacting it is not the cause. When I try to simulate the exact hold and see if I can press the release button hard enough to activate it, it's not happening. Plus again, it doesn't happen with the flat base mag. The bottom line is that I am becoming very certain that this has something to do with only the pinkie extension magazines and an internal magazine catch that isn't holding it firm enough while my pinkie finger is pushing downward . I'll do more testing with flat base mags to isolate the problem and confirm it to be with the pinkie mags.
Click to expand...
 
mavracer said:
The second round is infinitely more important than the 11th;)
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Trunk Monkey said:
If it all comes down to your "+1" you brought the wrong gun anyway.
Click to expand...

Please guys, enough with the smart remarks and lecturing down to me.

You will be under stress in an emergency situation and likely NOT be shooting your best. In the scenario in which multiple thugs are shooting at you from beyond point-blank range, statistics show that the majority of your return fire will miss. Statistics show many instances in which police had emptied their magazines and hit the perpetrator just once or not at all. To increase the odds of my connecting with a moving target who is armed and firing at me, I want an 11th round if it's available to me JUST IN CASE it could make a difference. Maybe I have already connected twice on an adrenaline crazed meth head and it's my final 11th round that is still needed. You just never know what situation can arise, and I prefer to be prepared.

Kindly don't humor me, and I'll refrain from doing it on you.
 
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