change ccw after el paso?

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The Evangelist Cowboy said:
what more really needs to be said on this? Either you agree or you dont, lets move on already.
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What’s left is your answer. My question and assertion is based on your own logic and a natural extension of that logic.

So? Based on your own comments what’s your justification for not going into law enforcement full time? I mean if you have some limitation that prohibits it, that’s totally understandable. I’m just wondering with the moral convictions you say you have it seems a good choice.
 
460Shooter said:
So all I asked was if you’re a law enforcement officer. So to all the rest of that, whatever.

I agreed to disagree earlier but honestly your logic has gotten so twisted up that you’re failing to see it.

By your own logic stated here.....

Then you are just as guilty as a mass murder also, because your answer is no. A police officer or swat team member is going to be better trained, will likely have body armor, perhaps a patrol rifle of some sort, maybe a shotgun, maybe even a sub gun. You would also have dispatch alerting you to threats and attacks, and you’d have the legal authority to turn on your siren and go racing towards a mass shooting to engage. You’d be more likely to dish out an appropriate response with the right gear, and faster due to communications with dispatch.

Correct? You’d be in a much better scenario to stop these threats than an average citizen with their self defense gun.

So isn’t it your responsibility to join a police force? Your own logic dictates anyone not choosing to engage a mass shooter is just as guilty of murder as the killer.

You should go into law enforcement. Why have you not done this?
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I agree wholeheartedly, by my own logic I stated that if you have the means you should engage, we as the gun culture or community or just some some asshats that carry guns keep saying the same things over and over. See above for references to those sayings. I stick by what I said you are JUST as responsible for those murders if you choose not to engage when you know you can fight back. My opinion has not changed. You will be dealt with in the realm of public onion IF they find out you were carrying which I already stated concealed is concealed but im throwing this out there), Your Creator (whether you believe in the Christian or whatever Chtulu squid thing the kids are killing dogs over for now), and your own conscience (I stated a failure of mine that still eats at me to this day). SWAT may be more trained but the average cop? no theyre not. While I and others have seen a marked improvement on the individual officers undergoing training outside the department but the whole of a force? no I dont view the average cop as highly trained (in the realm of marksmanship at least). Yes I would love for all those things but I dont have them, I dont have dispatch or any of the luxuries that a dept could offer me, but for those 5-10 minutes that fire starts erupting and they havent responded yet, I do have a gun (two actually) on me and I do have knives and if it came down to it, I have the coke bottles like the other guy. Why havent I become a cop? Somedays I ask myself that. Really I do.
 
460Shooter said:
What’s left is your answer. My question and assertion is based on your own logic and a natural extension of that logic.

So? Based on your own comments what’s your justification for not going into law enforcement full time? I mean if you have some limitation that prohibits it, that’s totally understandable. I’m just wondering with the moral convictions you say you have it seems a good choice.
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I just answered give me a sec. I aint as good a typer as yall are apparently
 
460Shooter said:
What’s left is your answer. My question and assertion is based on your own logic and a natural extension of that logic.

So? Based on your own comments what’s your justification for not going into law enforcement full time? I mean if you have some limitation that prohibits it, that’s totally understandable. I’m just wondering with the moral convictions you say you have it seems a good choice.
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Your viewing intervening as part of an occupation though, I state you should intervene because of your being. IF we believe to have the right granted to us from birth to own and use weaponry to defend life and liberty, why wouldnt I expect you to use that right to defend others? Remember the cops are not responsible for defending you, so if they wont, and the people there couldnt defend themselves and you could stop it. why wouldnt you?
 
I just realized I didnt truly answer your question. Heres the truth, currently I am not in shape to even pass the fitness exams, I barely got back into working out, the Army was a different beast than out here. I will be getting back in "fighting" shape, I have no plans to become a police officer, I have thought about it, and I visit the local community colleges webpage and get on the cusp of applying but I dont, I am enrolling summer 2020 however for the EMT/Paramedic program at Del Mar here in Texas.
 
The Evangelist Cowboy said:
Your viewing intervening as part of an occupation though, I state you should intervene because of your being. IF we believe to have the right granted to us from birth to own and use weaponry to defend life and liberty, why wouldnt I expect you to use that right to defend others? Remember the cops are not responsible for defending you, so if they wont, and the people there couldnt defend themselves and you could stop it. why wouldnt you?
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No, I’m talking about intervening as a moral obligation which is what your statements are defining it as. I’m viewing law enforcement occupations as the best way to do that, which is undeniable. Even if their training isn’t great they will still be in the best equipped and most responsive position to engage a mass murder.

They DO absolutely have a responsibility to protect us. I disagree with the notion that they don’t. It’s their sworn duty. If any cop thinks they’d hesitate then they are in the wrong occupation.

I absolutely would try to stop a murder that’s happening right in front of me. I think most anyone participating here would. But your statement says if we don’t choose to go back in after getting our loved ones to safety we are just as guilty as the killer. By that logic, we are all murders if don’t do what we can to stop killers. So by extension we all all need to become cops to try and combat this threat. It’s a logical progression.
The Evangelist Cowboy said:
I just realized I didnt truly answer your question. Heres the truth, currently I am not in shape to even pass the fitness exams, I barely got back into working out, the Army was a different beast than out here. I will be getting back in "fighting" shape, I have no plans to become a police officer, I have thought about it, and I visit the local community colleges webpage and get on the cusp of applying but I dont, I am enrolling summer 2020 however for the EMT/Paramedic program at Del Mar here in Texas.
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Then good sir I thank you for your service, but as they say, put up or shut up. EMT work is a noble cause and I applaud anyone who does it. But they are the very needed and valued clean up crew for these situations, not the ones who stop the threat.

The moral high horse you’re trying to ride in this thread has no one in the saddle by the very logic you yourself defined, simply because you aren’t doing everything you can to stop these types of incidents. “Plain and Simple” as you like to put it.

I know, you don’t care.

Good luck
 
460Shooter said:
No, I’m talking about intervening as a moral obligation which is what your statements are defining it as. I’m viewing law enforcement occupations as the best way to do that, which is undeniable. Even if their training isn’t great they will still be in the best equipped and most responsive position to engage a mass murder.

They DO absolutely have a responsibility to protect us. I disagree with the notion that they don’t. It’s their sworn duty. If any cop thinks they’d hesitate then they are in the wrong occupation.

I absolutely would try to stop a murder that’s happening right in front of me. I think most anyone participating here would. But your statement says if we don’t choose to go back in after getting our loved ones to safety we are just as guilty as the killer. By that logic, we are all murders if don’t do what we can to stop killers. So by extension we all all need to become cops to try and combat this threat. It’s a logical progression.

Then good sir I thank you for your service, but as they say, put up or shut up. EMT work is a noble cause and I applaud anyone who does it. But they are the very needed and valued clean up crew for these situations, not the ones who stop the threat.

The moral high horse you’re trying to ride in this thread has no one in the saddle by the very logic you yourself defined, simply because you aren’t doing everything you can to stop these types of incidents. “Plain and Simple” as you like to put it.

I know, you don’t care.

Good luck
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If I had the high horse, I wouldnt have denigrated myself before talking about a situation in which I failed to do the right thing. I am saying you do have the moral obligation to your fellow man and that doesnt come from a badge again its by the nature of your existence. We collectively in the "gun world" use these sayings (regarding cops and good guy statements) but as we continually see the action that should correspond to those comments is severely lacking. Again I dont place obligation as part of your occupation, you WILL have to live with yourself, how you do it is up to you. If you want to let other people die if God forbid your ever in that situation then thats on you and the others that fail at even attempting to do something whether its engage the attacker with coke bottles or an armed battalion, to saving children and others. The attitude of me and mine first is quite frankly sickening but then the ones that truly come through in those times live up to the standard we have of such people. Yes, as stated before, and I havent changed my mind, Inaction in the face of letting others die, is JUST as guilty as the one doing the aggression. We are like others on here, going to have to agree to disagree.
 
My job is to run away from sounds of gunfire. Not changing anything and keeping my six shots. I accepted things like El Paso as a fact of daily life.
 
The point being that it's a personal choice. You're not a murder or just as culpable as the shooter if you choose your family and well-being first.
 
I completely agree with getting out of Dodge unless you or a family member is the next target or you have the opportunity for a shot that's nearly impossible to miss.

In the El Paso situation, the shooter passed people in the parking lot while openly carrying his rifle. That's unusual enough to get my attention but wouldn't justify evasive or defensive action. That he was wearing ear protection (and, I suspect, eye protection) would, in my mind, raise the threat level to nearly, but not quite, imminent. His targets were Hispanic. Therefore, he would have had no interest in an OFWG like me. It would have been easy for me to follow him quietly at a distance of a few feet showing no sign of interest or preparation for defensive action. If he does nothing, neither do I. No harm, no foul. If police or armed security challenge him, I back out. However, as soon as he clearly shows his intention, draw and open fire on him. Then, holster, conceal and call 911 to report a shooter down and request police and ambulance. Although it would be cruel to his first victim, I would prefer him to get at least one shot off so that there could be no question about overreaction on my part. The El Paso situation was probably unique which means this won't work generally.
 
Kendahl said:
I completely agree with getting out of Dodge unless you or a family member is the next target or you have the opportunity for a shot that's nearly impossible to miss.

In the El Paso situation, the shooter passed people in the parking lot while openly carrying his rifle. That's unusual enough to get my attention but wouldn't justify evasive or defensive action. That he was wearing ear protection (and, I suspect, eye protection) would, in my mind, raise the threat level to nearly, but not quite, imminent. His targets were Hispanic. Therefore, he would have had no interest in an OFWG like me. It would have been easy for me to follow him quietly at a distance of a few feet showing no sign of interest or preparation for defensive action. If he does nothing, neither do I. No harm, no foul. If police or armed security challenge him, I back out. However, as soon as he clearly shows his intention, draw and open fire on him. Then, holster, conceal and call 911 to report a shooter down and request police and ambulance. Although it would be cruel to his first victim, I would prefer him to get at least one shot off so that there could be no question about overreaction on my part. The El Paso situation was probably unique which means this won't work generally.
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I would say that if a person carrying a rifle is observed donning earpro...and then inserting a mag and rack a round, its lights out time.
 
The Evangelist Cowboy said:
What is with all these damn hypotheticals? You will drastically already be the ONLY guy armed (not the bad guy), take the damn shot Everytime you get into a car, turn on an engine, drink a beer, eat a steak go to sleep there is a freaking risk of SOMETHING happening. If the risk of helping is too great maybe you don't need to be carrying. Throw the personal responsibility out the window. You have the obligation being a damn human being of doing something if you truly believe you have nothing to do in that situation then give up now, sell your guns there of no use and pick up a safe hobby like stamp collecting, hell becareful though paper cuts are common
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What statistics, not blanket statements, can you proffer to substantiate “You will drastically already be the ONLY guy armed...”?

But equating victims ( and that is what everyone in the store was absent the murderer. And being armed does not make you less a victim) with a murdering coward is absurd.
 
The Evangelist Cowboy said:
People know how they'd react, people either have fight or flight, People on this very forum have been in situations through whatever scenario brought onto it. I KNOW how Id react based on previous experience in combat situatios.Its not hard to fathom. It really isnt.
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Well most of us are just regular human beings - not Superman egomaniacs that proclaim to know how they would react in every single situation. Regardless of training.
 
Texas10mm said:
I am a Marine. I will be a Marine till the day I die. If I didn't do all I can to stop a mass shooting I would no longer deserve the title, United States Marine.
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And if you did take action without planning, assessment, logic, you would also not be a Marine.
 
I have not seen any indication that a larger or more powerful handgun would offer me or those near me any greater protection in a active shooter situation than offered by a small revolver or pocket pistol. In fact, in a situation like any of the recent incidents the reality appears that having a clear line of sight with minimal risk of hitting non-target folk would be extremely unlikely.
 
I will not be changing what I DO, however, I will be changing what I SAY.

Based on the numbers, this shooting makes it abundantly clear that permit holders are quite unlikely to have any effect on mass shootings. There should have been upwards of 30 permit holders at the location of the shooting based on the TX permit statistics and the number of persons in the store--even accounting for the fact that this store is legally frequented by many Mexican Nationals who can not legally carry.

I don't feel I can keep trying to claim that permit holders are likely to be a factor in mass shootings if I want to be honest.
 
To the OP's question, I wouldn't change what I carry, since 16 rounds of 9mm JHP out of a subcompact I can do headshots with to 10 yards should get me through a single mass shooter scenario. I hope.

As far as the question of engaging a shooter, I hope I would, but I've never been in a firefight. I've shot competitions, I've taken training, but no one was shooting back. I do know if you mentally program yourself not to do something, your chances of doing it are close to zero.

I mean the reason we carry these heavy dangerous things are for just such an emergency, right?
 
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